Judo Official Judo Thread

[RJ Green]

haha the only throws I can really get consistently are sacrifice throws. But of course people tend to figure out how to stop it once ive done it to them a couple times.

Also sometimes I mess up the timing and wind up pining myself.

So I often feel as if im stalling or taking big risks.

Resist the urge to get easy wins in Randori. If you rely on falling down and dragging people with you, you're not learning to throw.

They're absolutely valid in competition and I'm not saying never to practice them, but if you rely on them exclusively you're really gonna hurt your game.

 

[TheFakeMacoy]

Does anyone else here read JudoCrazy? They just started an e-magazine. I read the first issue and it had some interesting stuff. A lot of it was just a summary of 2016, with a break down of all the Olympic divisions.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Resist the urge to get easy wins in Randori. If you rely on falling down and dragging people with you, you're not learning to throw.

They're absolutely valid in competition and I'm not saying never to practice them, but if you rely on them exclusively you're really gonna hurt your game.

The way throws are executed these days, its all sacrifice throws.
Sasae is almost always a sacrifice now.
Uchimata is practiced as rolling uchimata...
There is no such discussion in wrestling- if you got the guy down, you got him down. Doesnt matter if you did with lateral drop or wizzer or whatever.
It goes to show the elitist mentality of some people in judo world: "This throw is very manly, but those are not".
In my opinion, suplex is the best of all throws existing in the universe. Is it "judo" enough? Yeah, even if they tried to ban it through banning the bear hug...

 

[RJ Green]

yeah, that's where i really begrudge the leadership of the IJF. Judo is supposed to be about effectiveness, not who has the prettiest throw.

 

[Uchi Mata]

The way throws are executed these days, its all sacrifice throws.
Sasae is almost always a sacrifice now.
Uchimata is practiced as rolling uchimata...
There is no such discussion in wrestling- if you got the guy down, you got him down. Doesnt matter if you did with lateral drop or wizzer or whatever.
It goes to show the elitist mentality of some people in judo world: "This throw is very manly, but those are not".
In my opinion, suplex is the best of all throws existing in the universe. Is it "judo" enough? Yeah, even if they tried to ban it through banning the bear hug...

Totally agree. Tomoe nage was always one of my best throws, is it less of an ippon if I get it with a tomoe nage than a seio nage? Not so much.

 

[Thycidides]

Speaking of easy wins I went to another judo club and just arm barred a bunch of yellow belts. I wanted to train with the more experienced guys but didn't get a chance to aside from some drills.

It was kind of odd because while it was in some ways it inferior to the judo club I normally go to as it had way more beginners, the coach there showed some stuff I hadn't seem before.

 

[QingTian]

The way throws are executed these days, its all sacrifice throws.
Sasae is almost always a sacrifice now.
Uchimata is practiced as rolling uchimata...
There is no such discussion in wrestling- if you got the guy down, you got him down. Doesnt matter if you did with lateral drop or wizzer or whatever.
It goes to show the elitist mentality of some people in judo world: "This throw is very manly, but those are not".
In my opinion, suplex is the best of all throws existing in the universe. Is it "judo" enough? Yeah, even if they tried to ban it through banning the bear hug...

Okay I'll be Mr. Pedantic again, but there is an important reason not to practice non-sacrifice throws this way, not least of which is that you can end up in a bad position on the ground.

The sacrifice action of non-sacrifice throws are not really related to how the throw mechanically works, which as a result means a less powerful throw. Furthermore, for the learner it does not give you the feedback you need to improve your technique.

As a matter of physics, if you really had delivered all the power you can, you would remain standing as the force delivered generates an opposite reaction. For contest, it's not important, but for an art that defines itself for powerful throws it's very important.

For sacrifice throws, it's bad for a beginner to do it because there is a tendency to skip kuzushi steps (for all throws done by beginners). Being able to throw other beginners won't teach them how to make kuzushi on advanced players.

 

[QingTian]

I remember a seminar given by Isao Okano, and many of the players there were rather disinterested and talking among themselves. Then Okano and his son did a quick demo, and the room went silent. Both had the cleanest and most powerful technique you may ever see. His son's uke had a big "holy shit" look on his face, and the dad was even scarier despite being in his 60's already. Like a knife through butter.

 

[RJ Green]

As a matter of physics, if you really had delivered all the power you can, you would remain standing as the force delivered generates an opposite reaction.

bullshit. not even close bub.

F = ma

100kg * 9.8 m/s^2 = 980kN
200kg * 9.8 m/2^ = 1961 kN

and that's just calculating the potential energy of the fall, there's a complicated-ass formula for impact force given how long the impact takes and whether or not we bounce, and i don't have the values for how much tatami absorbs.

the force I hit uke with isn't what matters, it's the force with which uke hits the ground.

so yeah, if i fall on top of you, you hit the ground a lot fuckin' harder than if I don't.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Okay I'll be Mr. Pedantic again, but there is an important reason not to practice non-sacrifice throws this way, not least of which is that you can end up in a bad position on the ground.

The sacrifice action of non-sacrifice throws are not really related to how the throw mechanically works, which as a result means a less powerful throw. Furthermore, for the learner it does not give you the feedback you need to improve your technique.

As a matter of physics, if you really had delivered all the power you can, you would remain standing as the force delivered generates an opposite reaction. For contest, it's not important, but for an art that defines itself for powerful throws it's very important.

For sacrifice throws, it's bad for a beginner to do it because there is a tendency to skip kuzushi steps (for all throws done by beginners). Being able to throw other beginners won't teach them how to make kuzushi on advanced players.

So, you claim you can throw with any sacrifice throws without set up or kuzushi?!?!
If that was possible, all Olympic players are wasting time, trying to set up, arent they?

Another angle:
Is Seoinage a sacrifice? Because if you miss, you get choked, pinned or thrown.

Again, I have never seen a wrestling coach with that mentality. And maybe thats why judo is complicated- the sport is simple, but the coaches like to overcomplicate everything.

Ask yourself if the opinion you have on "what is judo and what is not" is something you thought of by yourself or someone told you that.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I remember a seminar given by Isao Okano, and many of the players there were rather disinterested and talking among themselves. Then Okano and his son did a quick demo, and the room went silent. Both had the cleanest and most powerful technique you may ever see. His son's uke had a big "holy shit" look on his face, and the dad was even scarier despite being in his 60's already. Like a knife through butter.

I have caused the same reaction in tournaments in Japan, suplexing university competitors.

 

[QingTian]

bullshit. not even close bub.

F = ma

100kg * 9.8 m/s^2 = 980kN
200kg * 9.8 m/2^ = 1961 kN

and that's just calculating the potential energy of the fall, there's a complicated-ass formula for impact force given how long the impact takes and whether or not we bounce, and i don't have the values for how much tatami absorbs.

the force I hit uke with isn't what matters, it's the force with which uke hits the ground.

so yeah, if i fall on top of you, you hit the ground a lot fuckin' harder than if I don't.

No, first that is wrong because your force adds to acceleration (initially). Second that's the wrong formula - it's the kinetic energy formula for impact (1/2 * mv^2). Velocity is squared, so the speed of impact has a much greater impact on the power of the throw.

Lastly, there is the efficiency of energy transfer. An analog is in billiards - when you softly hit the ball, the white ball continues with the ball being hit. If you hit hard, the white ball actually bounces back a bit. It's impact elasticity and conservation of momentum.

The other thing you mention about impact mechanics - it's a lot tougher if the force is all absorbed in one place, like hitting the mat, versus two places when uke falls on top of you.

The reason people think the fall is harder when tori falls on uke is simply perception. Both because you feel the impact in your chest more, squeezing out your air, and because an improperly done throw does not have enough downward projection. Without the finish, you mostly feel acceleration from gravity and not power from tori.

 

[QingTian]

So, you claim you can throw with any sacrifice throws without set up or kuzushi?!?!
If that was possible, all Olympic players are wasting time, trying to set up, arent they?

Another angle:
Is Seoinage a sacrifice? Because if you miss, you get choked, pinned or thrown.

Again, I have never seen a wrestling coach with that mentality. And maybe thats why judo is complicated- the sport is simple, but the coaches like to overcomplicate everything.

Ask yourself if the opinion you have on "what is judo and what is not" is something you thought of by yourself or someone told you that.

I did not say you can or should do sacrifice throws without kuzushi. I said that beginners get away with that because other beginners automatically provide kuzushi for you.

A sacrifice means using your body, losing position, as the main impetus for the throw. It's not to mean the literal meaning of 'sacrifice' in English or risk taking.

I taught myself most of Judo, so no, nobody told me what to think. Ask yourself how often is the crowd wrong and you are right... the answer isn't as often as we think.

 

[RJ Green]

You 'taught yourself Judo'?

Get the fuck out of here.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I did not say you can or should do sacrifice throws without kuzushi. I said that beginners get away with that because other beginners automatically provide kuzushi for you.

A sacrifice means using your body, losing position, as the main impetus for the throw. It's not to mean the literal meaning of 'sacrifice' in English or risk taking.

I taught myself most of Judo, so no, nobody told me what to think. Ask yourself how often is the crowd wrong and you are right... the answer isn't as often as we think.

Beginners have no place training with beginners. They should always be training with supervision from higher ranks. As such, I dont see how they can pull off a throw without kuzushi.

As for sacrificing- drop seoinage does exactly that- sacrificing position. In case you fail, you get choked, pinned or countered with a throw.

If you taught yourself judo, how do you know which is proper 柔道 and what is ugly judo? And as a self taught judoka, who gives you the authority to make such statements?

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

The reason people think the fall is harder when tori falls on uke is simply perception. Both because you feel the impact in your chest more, squeezing out your air, and because an improperly done throw does not have enough downward projection. Without the finish, you mostly feel acceleration from gravity and not power from tori.

So, if I throw you with improper suplex, landing on top of your neck with both our weight will have less impact than me throwing you with a perfect form?
This:


... has less impact then this:

 

[QingTian]

Beginners have no place training with beginners. They should always be training with supervision from higher ranks. As such, I dont see how they can pull off a throw without kuzushi.

As for sacrificing- drop seoinage does exactly that- sacrificing position. In case you fail, you get choked, pinned or countered with a throw.

If you taught yourself judo, how do you know which is proper 柔道 and what is ugly judo? And as a self taught judoka, who gives you the authority to make such statements?

Beginners do not pull off throws without kuzushi, normally. What they generally do not know to do is make kuzushi.

So should all drop throws be considered sacrifice then? I think not... those throws have a component of pulling down with the hands that sacrifice throws do not.

I just showed the math, so why do I need someone's authority?

 

[QingTian]

So, if I throw you with improper suplex, landing on top of your neck with both our weight will have less impact than me throwing you with a perfect form?

No, first I wrote about non-sacrifice throws, and second velocity is squared whereas mass is not. The consequence is that a good throw is many more times powerful than one primary from gravity, but it's not easily perceived since often a poor throw has low velocity so that squaring a small number still isn't so big.

Let's not add in where you land. That's a straw man argument. We could comparing osoto landing on the head too.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Beginners do not pull off throws without kuzushi, normally. What they generally do not know to do is make kuzushi.

So should all drop throws be considered sacrifice then? I think not... those throws have a component of pulling down with the hands that sacrifice throws do not.

I just showed the math, so why do I need someone's authority?

Define sacrifice throw please.
Im not talking about math. Im talking about your perception of good vs bad judo

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

No, first I wrote about non-sacrifice throws, and second velocity is squared whereas mass is not. The consequence is that a good throw is many more times powerful than one primary from gravity, but it's not easily perceived since often a poor throw has low velocity so that squaring a small number still isn't so big.

Let's not add in where you land. That's a straw man argument. We could comparing osoto landing on the head too.

You claim that bad throw has less impact.
I illustrated the opposite