Official Judo Thread VIII

[Hellcat93]

Signed up for Judo last night, it was pretty fun. Started with a pretty standard warm up, then started drilling some throws and such. Got to work one on one with the instructor, which was awesome because I got a lot of technical advice.

He kind of apologized as the stuff was a bit advanced for a first timer. First we worked a sacrafice throw (sumi gashi or something) if the opponent is in a lefty stance. Then we did another drill that's too complicated for me to explain.

Next we got out crash mats and everyone was working throws. I "learned" O soto gari i believe. It was where you bring your leg behind theirs, reap and throw them down. Was also shown a few variations and different circumstances for the throw.

Last drill was just drilling tai oshi.

Next was randori. The coach had me watch the first round. Next he paired me up with a young student, who wasn't very good, but hey neither am I. Next he paired me with another young student(older than the previous) who was a purple belt. Told me to go hard with him when it got to the ground(he knew I was a bjj blue). Kid went after me pretty hard, which was fine by me. Stayed calm, it went to the ground, got him in a bow and arrow. I'm not bragging, just explaining lol. Think this pissed the kid off, because he started going harder, and hit me with a real nice throw, fell flat on my back. Ippon. Next it went to the ground again, arm barred him. Went to the ground again, basic collar choke from the back, don't even know what its called lol. Each time kid got more pissed and went harder and at one point was just straight up kicking my leg, not even really working for the footsweep. I didn't care, I could understand his frustration, and like I said he was young.

I want to make it clear, i wasn't trying to crush this kid on the ground, just worked my game.

Next went with a blue close to my age I believe and right away he told me to loosen up, a lot. So I did. He wasn't doing much, just letting me work. I tried some stuff, but couldn't do anything. Was cool to see how clueless I really was.

Sorry for the long post, just excited to start learning Judo!

 

[liunetor8310]

Sumi gaeshi on first training haha
Becouse we are already at sumi gaehi just a question for you guys. I can't pull it out in randori just throw my self on back and uke remains standing after he moves his legs a bit. Should i break balance more? What are some set ups for sumi gaeshi?

 

[Mcmoon]

Sumi gaeshi on first training haha
Becouse we are already at sumi gaehi just a question for you guys. I can't pull it out in randori just throw my self on back and uke remains standing after he moves his legs a bit. Should i break balance more? What are some set ups for sumi gaeshi?

When I was shown it we done with a cross grip on the sleeve and then reached around the back to grab the around the lats(posture is broken pretty well if you can get that). Then do your step in and hook kind of behind the knee. Haven't actually tried it in randori yet but would probably do like an arm drag to get into position.

 

[Judo Thai Boxer]

Sumi gaeshi on first training haha
Becouse we are already at sumi gaehi just a question for you guys. I can't pull it out in randori just throw my self on back and uke remains standing after he moves his legs a bit. Should i break balance more? What are some set ups for sumi gaeshi?

Really deep back grip helps with sumi gaeshi IMO but I think it's called something else from there. Or it's called sumi gaeshi with a belt grip and something else higher up the back, idk.

Threaten with the hip throw and kouchi etc and eventually you'll get them going the way you want for a sumi gaeshi when you put in a few attacks.

Colin Oates did a nice one in the commonwealth games where he went Uchi mata and then into sumi gaeshi.

 

[liunetor8310]

Really deep back grip helps with sumi gaeshi IMO but I think it's called something else from there. Or it's called sumi gaeshi with a belt grip and something else higher up the back, idk.

Threaten with the hip throw and kouchi etc and eventually you'll get them going the way you want for a sumi gaeshi when you put in a few attacks.

Colin Oates did a nice one in the commonwealth games where he went Uchi mata and then into sumi gaeshi.

Yea but it is impossible to do it like somebody whose main throw is sumi gaeshi

 

[Judo Thai Boxer]

Yea but it is impossible to do it like somebody whose main throw is sumi gaeshi

Not really, I hate sumi gaeshi but when the opportunity is there I still go for it and catch people often. It's absolute money in BJJ with their bent over stance.

 

[liunetor8310]

That is why i want to learn it, its pretty hard to do normal throws to people with wrestling stance and it is not always easy to get left arm across their backs for other sacrifice throws...
Any other throw for hunched people? I normaly try footsweeps and o soto gari but it is still hard.

 

[Judo Thai Boxer]

Ken ken osoto gari and lots of stuff from a belt grip is what I've found so far.

I haven't been at my BJJ gym long but I'm planning on repping the shit out of kouchi and then lead into o goshi.

 

[Thai Otoshi]

That is why i want to learn it, its pretty hard to do normal throws to people with wrestling stance and it is not always easy to get left arm across their backs for other sacrifice throws...
Any other throw for hunched people? I normaly try footsweeps and o soto gari but it is still hard.

When I first started training judo consistently, and asked ITT how to deal with that hunched over wrestler's stance, people told me deashi barai, o soto, o uchi, yoko tomoe nage, and tomoe nage....

They were right.

I just avoid o uchi, despite being able to hit it at will in BJJ, just because I might as well let them pull guard. Kesa gatame or bust! I also pull off harai goshi with an over the top belt grip when they hunch over as well. You can also turn single leg attempts into uchi mata, provided you get a whizzer grip (no gi), or belt grip (gi) as they come in.

I just realized that I basically play tall guy judo in BJJ lol.

 

[doyourkegles22]

I deal with wrestler/bjj bent over stance by making them move and take big steps. Once I pull back or circle, and they take a big leading leg step, I attack that leg; which, gets me a take down or sets me up for my uchi mata to tai otoshi.

You got to create those angles, it amplifies the effectiveness of grip fighting.

I get a lot of experience since everyone I teach and randori against at my club are brand new white belts coming in from BJJ.

...I'm pretty much an expert

 

[Zankou]

When I first started training judo consistently, and asked ITT how to deal with that hunched over wrestler's stance, people told me deashi barai, o soto, o uchi, yoko tomoe nage, and tomoe nage....

They were right.

I just avoid o uchi, despite being able to hit it at will in BJJ, just because I might as well let them pull guard. Kesa gatame or bust! I also pull off harai goshi with an over the top belt grip when they hunch over as well. You can also turn single leg attempts into uchi mata, provided you get a whizzer grip (no gi), or belt grip (gi) as they come in.

I just realized that I basically play tall guy judo in BJJ lol.

I don't know why people advise tomoe nage against BJJ guys, that is literally the single easiest throw for me to defend. I've never been thrown by it. Experienced BJJ guys tend to be incredibly adept at defending what is, essentially, a basic overhead sweep ... partly because it is almost identical to the guard pulling maneuver that every BJJ match begins with. ZOMG the guy is going to go to his back and try to sweep, never seen that one before. I think people advise tomoe nage against BJJ guys because in the judo world it is a good attack against a bent-over posture, but it's just not a solid attack in BJJ, which is probably why I have never in my life seen anybody ever succeed with standing tomoenage in a BJJ competition. It also puts you in the wretched position of being a judoka who has essentially just pulled guard against a BJJ player. If a normal judoka pulls tomoe nage on me, it generally means I am seconds away from catching them in newaza ippon.

Footsweeps, osoto, sumi gaeshi, uchimata, and kouchi/ouchi are much better options IMO against a BJJ guy, who has little experience against them. Really I think Rodolfo Vieira's game is almost ideal for using judo takedowns against a BJJ stance opponent.

[YT]GgkNZeoVSG0[/YT]

 

[Mcmoon]

I don't know why people advise tomoe nage against BJJ guys, that is literally the single easiest throw for me to defend. I've never been thrown by it. Experienced BJJ guys tend to be incredibly adept at defending what is, essentially, a basic overhead sweep ... partly because it is almost identical to the guard pulling maneuver that every BJJ match begins with. ZOMG the guy is going to go to his back and try to sweep, never seen that one before.

Footsweeps, osoto, sumi gaeshi, uchimata, and kouchi/ouchi are much better options IMO against a BJJ guy, who has little experience against them.

I've had it tried on my a couple of times and thinking about it I don't think any one has actually thrown me with it.

 

[doyourkegles22]

That's why you wont hear me say it. My friend was criticizing my first BJJ tournament because I wasn't doing any Yoko tomo, tomonage on the bent over opponents. I compete at the heavy weight division, i'm not trying to get smooshed LOL

 

[Thai Otoshi]

I don't know why people advise tomoe nage against BJJ guys, that is literally the single easiest throw for me to defend. I've never been thrown by it. Experienced BJJ guys tend to be incredibly adept at defending what is, essentially, a basic overhead sweep ... partly because it is almost identical to the guard pulling maneuver that every BJJ match begins with. ZOMG the guy is going to go to his back and try to sweep, never seen that one before. I think people advise tomoe nage against BJJ guys because in the judo world it is a good attack against a bent-over posture, but it's just not a solid attack in BJJ, which is probably why I have never in my life seen anybody ever succeed with standing tomoenage in a BJJ competition. It also puts you in the wretched position of being a judoka who has essentially just pulled guard against a BJJ player. If a normal judoka pulls tomoe nage on me, it generally means I am seconds away from catching them in newaza ippon.

Footsweeps, osoto, sumi gaeshi, uchimata, and kouchi/ouchi are much better options IMO against a BJJ guy, who has little experience against them. Really I think Rodolfo Vieira's game is almost ideal for using judo takedowns against a BJJ stance opponent.

[YT]GgkNZeoVSG0[/YT]

I see what you're saying, but after trying it a few times for kicks, I HAVE gotten it (mainly yoko) to work for me, though I tend to prefer o osoto, harai, and uchi mata. I'm not the biggest sutemi waza fan in general.

 

[Darkslide632]

Yoko tomoe nage is one of my BJJ instructor's favorite throws. The biggest issue I see with people trying to use tomoe nage is that 1) They're just not that good at it, and 2) they're trying to force it to happen when another throw would be more appropriate. I've had good luck with yoko tomoe nage, and mixed luck with hon tomoe nage.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I don't know why people advise tomoe nage against BJJ guys, that is literally the single easiest throw for me to defend. I've never been thrown by it. Experienced BJJ guys tend to be incredibly adept at defending what is, essentially, a basic overhead sweep ... partly because it is almost identical to the guard pulling maneuver that every BJJ match begins with. ZOMG the guy is going to go to his back and try to sweep, never seen that one before. I think people advise tomoe nage against BJJ guys because in the judo world it is a good attack against a bent-over posture, but it's just not a solid attack in BJJ, which is probably why I have never in my life seen anybody ever succeed with standing tomoenage in a BJJ competition. It also puts you in the wretched position of being a judoka who has essentially just pulled guard against a BJJ player. If a normal judoka pulls tomoe nage on me, it generally means I am seconds away from catching them in newaza ippon.

Footsweeps, osoto, sumi gaeshi, uchimata, and kouchi/ouchi are much better options IMO against a BJJ guy, who has little experience against them. Really I think Rodolfo Vieira's game is almost ideal for using judo takedowns against a BJJ stance opponent.

[YT]GgkNZeoVSG0[/YT]

I disagree. I've thrown a lot of BJJ guys in competition with tomoe nage, but I was/am a tomoe nage specialist in Judo and I love overhead sweeps in general so maybe I'm just generalizing a core of my game as something that would work for everyone. I've never had any luck with seio nage in BJJ, but I also suck at seio nage in Judo. To be honest, I don't really like any turning throws very much for BJJ just because of the downside of getting your back taken if uke is able to pull away. Various ashi waza, tomoe nage, sumi gaeshi, those are the Judo throws I like for BJJ. Ken ken style uchi mata is pretty safe as well since you can usually recover to neutral if the throw fails. Mostly I like ankle picks. All day with the ankle picks.

I should add that most people who try tomoe nage really do suck at it, and it's not a throw that rewards sucking. You can't really just beast a guy over with tomoe nage. You have to set it up with movement and have a fast motion to turn under the guy, and be good at controlling him through the air with your hands if you want to end up on top. Just sitting on your ass and putting your foot in his stomach is not a tomoe nage.

 

[RJ Green]

tomoenage is my first love and i agree with the fellas up yonder ^ that most of the bad tomoenages are from people who have no business doing them.

if we're talking risk/reward, i'm in the sumi gaeshi camp for both sports. uke has a lot more waggle room in tomoenage and in upper divisions tori needs to be able to adjust accordingly. tomoe also runs the risk of scoring on yourself with bad refs and a well-timed kiai.

sumi also tends to have the sneakier setups, but that's also thanks to a lot of people doing bad tomoenage.

i hate using the words 'higher percentage', but for me that's sumi gaeshi.

 

[Darkslide632]

[YT]GgkNZeoVSG0[/YT]

That's a cool video. I hadn't seen it before. I use the same ideas while teaching. Draw a line between uke's feet and intersect it at a 90 degree angle. In throws like osoto gari, however, you use kuzushi along that line to help prevent uke for being able to shift their weight off the leg that is being attacked.

 

[The Karate Man]

Sorry for my absence guys, I've had my hands full lately.

I got a Ne Waza question for y'all.

Kami Shiho Gatame, the top four corner hold... It's kinda like a pseudo North-South / 69 position. Are there any good submissions from this pin? I know of one lapel choke called the papercut, but that's about it.

 

[Judo Thai Boxer]

Fedor style kimura.