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Official American Supplement Wars News.

Discussion in 'Dieting / Supplement Discussion' started by Sinister, Aug 9, 2005.

  1. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Okay, since a lot of you guys come in here to genuinely discuss the State of Supplement Regulation in America, or often inquire as to what is going on with certain supplements, this is the place where we freely discuss the happenings and current events as well as things already accomplished. This also has a lot to do with you guys outside America in terms of ordering supplements as they must pass through customs (which I don't know if you know but if you're in America, phone ordering is a big way for the DEA to actually nab you, they do what's called "controlled deliveries" and that's how they busted Rodney St. Cloud, former New York Firefighter for Steroids), and how it affects International trade. I'll begin with letting you all in one some information I came across as to the History of the Ephedra ban. Oddly enough none of the Internet articles I read post this information, which is funny considering the Internet is the one place you can, but I've only found it in written word.

    Which reminds me, keep in mind you younger guys that EVERYTHING your Government does here in America has to be filed Publically and is a matter of Public Record as technically they all answer to YOU. So if you know where to look you can find the proper documentation. I'll cite my sources tomorrow as I left the Article at work.

    Apparently the MAIN study the FDA is basing their conclusions on the hazardous nature of Ephedra/Ephedrine in and of itself found NO evidence of long-term effects on blood-pressure or heart eurythmia that would suggest that anyone WITHOUT a pre-existin condition would be in any danger. The Doctors who conducted that specific study that they elusively refer to in their Final Ruling concluded there was nothing wrong with Ephedra use. What the FDA did was have THEIR contracted specialists review THIS study (as opposed to conducting studies of their own), and even more hilarious is that it appears that at least one of the FDA's own people disagreed that Ephedra was any long-term danger in people who were not afflicted by a pre-existing heart or liver condition, and used the Produc expressly as directed with proper medical supervision. In their final ruling they specifically use the words that their panel "in general" felt that there was evidence of significant long-term risk of health issues resulting from Ephedra use. If the results were that decisive, why did they need to use the words "in general", that suggests there was at least SOME disagreement even within their own system.

    Now, I find it hilarious personally that this Association has the ability to ban a supplement based on their DISAGREEMENT with the evidence supplied to them by those who study the pharmacology of the supplement, as well as it's affects. Mind you NO STUDY has thus far to my knowledge gone longer than 6 months either.

    Another funny thing about the current litigation is that the Judge that overturned the ban in Utah determined that the FDA had not shown sufficient evidence to warrant the supplement should be banned as a direct health-risk to responsible consumers. The problem with the whole 10mg thing is that the JUDGE stated 10mg in the ruling. This created a loophole for the FDA to uphold the ban for supplements containing higher doses. Had the Judge not stated 10mg specifically, there wouldn't be that dividing line.

    This is how our Government is working. Now we've all heard the horror stories about the Pharmaceutical Industry. Another thing is financial gains even for private Companies are a matter of Public Record. So you can follow how much money from what Companies is going towards what. Look up information on how much money from what is now being called "Big Pharma" is going towards lobbying at the current moment. In the last two years it's almost doubled if memory serves me correctly. Mind you the Pharmaceutical Industry was already the biggest source of lobbying as it was, the numbers are to the point now where the FDA is basically dependant on an Industry it supposedly regulates. Ephedra is banned, Androstein is banned, neither can be DIRECTLY linked to Deaths or proven to be hazardous for the responsible consumer, and yet there are countless medications available for which a side-effect is DEATH, and the lists of these side-effects are often much worse than the initial condition. I mean anti-depressants are being perscribed that can invoke thoughts of SUICIDE.

    It's getting out-of-hand, and has been for quite some time. But I tell you guys something. Money talks and bullshit walks. The only reason "Big Pharma" is getting away with this is because they're doing what Supplement, Nutrition, and even the Medical Community are not. They're unifying and paying the money necessary to get the Government on their side. Hopefully the newly formed Sports and Fitness Supplement Association (http://www.sfsassociation.com/) and the USFA (http://www.usfa.biz/) will be able to do something about it. But without public support these Companies just don't have the ability to fight the machine that has become the FDA.

    One of the best ways to get involved is to find out what's going on with your Local Government and making this one of the issues the Politicians in your area must confront. How do they feel on it, what is their stance? Do they think our supplements should not be taken away and replaced with chemicals whose nature we have no idea of which basically makes us pharmaceutical guinea pigs? Get behind those who think this all sounds stupid.
     
  2. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Now THIS makes absolutely no sense. I mean most people who come into my store aren't even AWARE of DHEA as a Test booster. HGH we sell, Symbiotropin, Megatropin, Tribulus, Secretagogue, Endotest, the Cellucore line which are VERY close to Androstein, and they want to ban DHEA!?!?!?

    This is just downright bullshit. If any of you have half a mind you can go here:

    www.saveoursupplements.org

    And send a pissed off letter to your Senator about it. lol Good shit.
     
  3. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Okay, so as I said I would state my sources for much of the above information, and here it is along with some very interesting other tidbits:

    The Article was written by Anssi Manninen who has an MHS.

    Apparently the FDA Rulings were mostly based on the Boozer Study. Which was a 6 month study as to the adverse affects of an Ephedra/Caffiene combination. Sitting blood pressure was measured using the cuff method, and I think another method was used later on. Basically Dr. Boozer concluded that small changes in blood-pressure variables and increased heart-rate. No arrhythmias (I must have misspelled it because this is the spelling in the article, or I had the wrong condition earlier, my bad). But overall the study concluded that the combination of Ephedra and Caffeine promotes bodyweight and fat reduction with no significant adverse affects.

    The FDA simply disagreed with this study, and banned the supplement. Their panel reviewed the evidence and one of the Doctors stated that if you calculate the small changes in heart-rate and blood-pressure, then apply it to the number of people using the supplement, then add in the amount of people who most-likely have a pre-existing condition due to obesity (something the study did not cover were the supplement's affects on people with a pre-existing condition, but how this is the responsibility of the manufacturer I don't know, I thought this is what Doctors and common sense were for)...then the supplement MIGHT pose a risk to kill folks.

    And as mentioned, their Final Ruling says their panel felt this way "in General"...meaning there had to be some internal disagreement. Even funnier is that Anssi was not able to get a hold of any of the "expert opinion" documents of this panel. He also argues why it's even significant, considering they're only OPINIONS.

    Now, what makes all this scary? The following figures:

    - As of 2002 PhRMA had over 675 lobbyists on payroll, and was spending in excess of $91 million for lobbying.

    - Fees to the FDA from Drug Companies went from $310,000 per new Drug, to $576,000 per new drug. Even more alarming is these fees are called "user fees".

    - The FDA has over 18 Advisory Committees supplied by PhRMA.

    - The 2004 fiscal reports for PhRMA indicated intent to increase capital for the purposes of buying influence from $91 million, to $150 million with a $5 million kicker to the FDA.

    So yes indeed. Money talks, bullshit walks. Now you know why you can't go into many hospitals with a simple sprained ankle and avoid walking out with a perscription anti-depressant. lol
     
  4. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Okay, so as some of you may have read in the magazines or on the Internet Victor Conte of BALCO copped a plea as a result of the Congressional Hearings and whatnot, being that BALCO was the scapegoat for this distribution of Anabolic Steroids malarkey. A lot of people are outraged at the leniency of the sentence (which is kind of silly considering they really shouldn't have been on tial in the first-place), which I think is like some minimum security jail-time (one year I believe), house-arrest/probation, and a bunch of fines and whatnot. Basically the thought in the Industry is the sentence reflects just how non-important this whole issue was, considering had it been a cocaine hearing, he'd be unable to cop such a lenient plea.

    Some of the people involved in this whole thing who gave testimony at the hearings were very vocal about how betrayed they feel by the Judicial system for being willing to let this slide (this is called covering your Political ASS), one of the most significant statements was that "now the American people will be unsure as to wether or not the athletic performances they have so enjoyed over the years were honorable or not."

    Now let's back up a second. How many of you ACTUALLY believed that these World-Class athletes were NOT using performance-enhancing drugs. Hands, anyone? Good, there are no morons present. These athletes (especially the American ones) have been suspected of everything from steroid use to gene-doping for decades. So basically, our ever-so-wise Government spent all this time, money, man-power etc., to NOT confirm what we already suspected, and conclude that what we already suspected, is suspect. Yes, that's basically what they said. "Boo hoo, now we'll never know if they were cheating, even though we think they were." Apparently it takes millions of tax dollars and attention from more important issues (Why is Congress interfering in Professional Sports as opposed to questioning the President about the War, or gas-prices, which I'm sure all of you smell the bullshit on those two issues...?) to NOT confirm what we already thought. Brilliant.

    So, being that Conte gets off relatively easy, and is now more famous than ever, and his partners are likely going to cut similar deals, who gets it up-the-ass without the lube or the kiss? You do. The tax-payer who funded this circus sideshow. Think about that next time you're at the pump and it takes you $40 to fill up the car it took you $25 to fill up a couple of months ago.

    But Conte is not out of the woods yet. One of the most laughable parts of this ordeal is that before it was cut Conte was compelled to release some of BALCO's records, which contained information about one Marion Jones (http://www.usatf.org/athletes/bios/Jones_Marion.asp) as a client of BALCO who was doing the dirt. Now, get this...Jones has filed a lawsuit against VICTOR CONTE. Not the Government (whose interference is the direct cause of her records being expunged), not her management, but suing VICTOR for defamation of character and all other kinds of nonsense, alleging that she did not "knowingly" take part in any illegal activity and was falsely named by Victor under testimony.

    Think about that for a second. Congress comes down and starts attempting to kick ass and take names, they call for official records of a Company, get names named, and somehow the person who named the names, as opposed to the people that called for it in the first-place, get sued. Awesome. Simply amazing ability to side-step a missile.

    EDIT** - Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Those crying parents that testified at the hearings who apparently had NO knowledge their kids were A) bodybuilding and B) "doing drugs"...have also filed suit against Conte. And even further, one particular set of parents (I forget the names, I can find out though) are now pushing to have CREATINE...yes, you read it correctly, banned by the FDA claiming that Creatine was the "gateway drug" into their children's steroid use. Scary part is, enough people are totally mis-educated on supplements that they believe the hogwash.
     
  5. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    So I read recently that DHEA is indeed banned in Illinois, classed as an Anabolic Steroid. This is kind of frightening considering that not one scientific review was probably done to determine DHEA's anabolic effects in terms of muscle-building. But I also read a couple of things citing other benefits of DHEA use that are pretty verifiable. For one thing DHEA is not specifically just a testosterone pre-cursor (much to my surprise), it can be readily converted into many different hormones in the body, and it's also one of the most prominent things found in our bloodstream. So it makes one think, if the FDA only bans things they KNOW work and detract money from pharmaceuticals (only a monkey wouldn't have ascertained that by now), what is it about DHEA's use they don't want people to know?

    Also, I read an interesting interview of Bodybuilder Dave "Jumbo" Palumbo's stay in a Federal Prison for 5 months (busted on Possession and Trafficing of Steroids). One thing he said that was pretty funny is that Bob Barker (you know, the cyborg who never ages from The Price is Right) owns the contracts of supplying Federal Prisons with food. Strange eh? Imagine how much money he makes from that. So anyhow, getting to the point. There was a recent Bill passed to reduce if not disband weight-training in Prisons, for fear of Prisoners getting stronger than guards (why the guards cannot just train is beyond me). So with he, a viable and VERY knowledgable Pro being in Prison, basically everything he used they took away. During his stay they took a Smith Machine, a couple of other weight machines they had, plus they had only Zone bars in the Prison commissary and once he bought like 45 of them immediately they stopped carrying them and switched to Peanut M&M's. Plus during the orientation the Warden of the Prison he was in told him if they found CREATINE in his system he would immediately be shipped to Maximum Security lockdown. Creatine.

    And how about that Rafael Palmiero. Pointing his finger at Congress and lying through his moustache. LOL "I did not and never have done any steroids." What's even funnier than that is what followed in the wake of his suspension and subsequent heat from Congress. HE GETS PRAISED. They gave him accolades for being willing to Cooperate, name names, admit the truth, blah blah blah. Let's review. He lies under oath, gets busted, THEN agrees to tell the truth, and is now a jewel of a human being...while Canseco, what a piece of shit that guy is. HA HA HA!!

    Also, if you noticed, Congress wasn't at all impressed with his being busted. They issued a statement saying Pro Baseball keeps "swinging and missing" when it comes to it's Drug Policies. But if you look at the numbers, inside of 5 years they reduced the number of players being busted for Steroid use from about 7% to less than 1%. Oh yeah, they're totally fucking up.
     
  6. saaavage

    saaavage Black Belt

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    wheres romanowski when you need him
     
  7. axecutioner

    axecutioner Red Belt

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    As you read this, leaders in Washington are working to restrict your access to dietary supplements - including the safe, effective, and affordable vitamins, minerals, and herbs you depend on for your health.

    While more than 70 percent of Americans use dietary supplements, some lawmakers want to pass laws that will create roadblocks to supplement access, making it harder for you to purchase the products you rely on for good health.
    If you believe consumers deserve real health choices, tell Washington to Save Our Supplements.

    Source: http://www.saveoursupplements.org/

    This kind of pisses me off. Click on the link to find out more and/or to notify your congressman of your opinion.
     
  8. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    It's definitely worth the minute to visit that site. The Government is getting out of hand when they let a set of crying parents state before Congress and the mainstream press that Creatine was a gateway drug that lead to their son's steroid use and eventual Death.
     
  9. Dieselgoku23

    Dieselgoku23 White Belt

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    Well is the Big Pharma industries putting pressure to all the senators they gave money to them for their campaings. Is so sad how America is the most medicated country and yet we cant cure nothing!!! people depend on Garbage medecines that they get hooked on. While Natural supplements have been here for years and are taking a big chunck of money pie out of Pharmas. They want no competition!!!. Herbs are the most effective medicines out there against cold and many other things!!!!!
     
  10. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Speaking of which one of my long-term success stories came in to see me tonight. This guy was up to 241 and stands about 5'7", and he's diabetic and was so bad if he ate a piece of WHOLE WHEAT bread his insulin would spike and he'd almost go straight into a diabetic coma. His cholesterol and heart was also bad. Now he's 201, looks so good I didn't even recognize him, and can eat 25g of carbs in a sitting with no insulin spike.

    He told me a story about how they had him on Lipitor, and every other damn cholesterol medication known to mad made by phramaceutical companies and NONE of them worked. Add that to the side-effects and it was a huge pain in the ass to find anything worth taking. So his cardiologist finally says "try time-released Niacin, 500 mg at first and move up to 750"...now I think he said his LDL was 89 and total cholesterol was 102. I think.

    He asked why I thought they never told him about the time-released Niacin (which he bought at fucking Walgreen's), before. I said simple...they make no money off it.
     
  11. MadDildo

    MadDildo Shame Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Cardiologists don't really make any money off pharmaceuticals, Kabuki, not even indirectly (except for a select few who have no morals and use their "MD" as a billboard). I don't think that's a fair analysis of his doctor's motives. I don't really know too much about Lipitor, but my understanding was that for many, it works.
     
  12. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Lipitor works but one of it's side-effects is severe muscle cramping. Red Yeast Rice does the EXACT same thing as Lipitor for much less money and minus the cramping. It's so effective you cannot take the two at the same time because they'll cancel each-other out. Now I'm not saying Red Yeast Rice should replace Lipitor, because I'm not AGAINST Pharmaceuticals entirely, I just think people should be given both options.

    In-terms of the cardiologists...it's true specialists aren't as much so on the big-phrma take, but they do get kick-backs from what I know. My Aunt worked in an office with a cardiologist and a gastro-enterologist and she said on random days week-to-week they'd have some moop walk in in a business suit with a box of bottles and offer to buy the whole office lobster lunches if they'd be willing to distribute such and such a new medication. She also told me she could get basically whatever kind of medication I need at work for free. If those aren't incentives to push pharmaceuticals I don't know what are. What's killing me about all this is how many of these Companies are coming from the Private Sector and not from the Health Care field. Medical Care for Profit is just bad the way I see it.
     
  13. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Oh yeah and I think pseudoephedrine may be heading for the ban. I have shit sinuses and buy nasal decongestants week-to-week and now in certain pharmacies you have to go through the actual pharmacies to get ones containing pseudoephedrine. Plus they only have x-amount of types of them where they used to have a big selection. I thought this was odd, then I read some re-printed articles about the DEA stopping shipments of it to this Country to try and stint methamphetamine Production.

    I went as far as to call up Walgreen's specifically and ask their Customer Service deparment what the dealy-o is and got a bullshit run-around answer. lol So for those of you who like myself, have used these things with no adverse effects (until I started taking small doses of it day-to-day, I was never able to breathe out of both my damn notrils at the same time), we may have to take it in the ass with this one. Damn America and their utter hatred for shit that works and focus on regulation as opposed to education.
     
  14. rickdog

    rickdog Purple Belt

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    Great read King Kabuki. I agree whole heartedly with what you have written. I think the FDA needs to back off. IMO they should lay off the pro hormones too. Lets use Anabolic Extreme for an example. They provide many great supplements that WORK. ALot of people are calling their supps steroids and some researchers came out with tests that shows they are (I will search for link). Anyway, my point is that you get away with taking 20 or 30 mg's instead of 1000, 2000 mgs of the real deal. It is safer with relativly no side effects. People will go back to the black market now that these supps are being banned and then we will see the truly negative effects of injecting fake concoctions in your ass. Enough of my confused rant. When it comes down to it, I am just sickened by the witchunt put on by asswipe politicians who are smoking their cigarets and drinking their third cup of coffee while talking about the dangers of drugs. They can f themselves
     
  15. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    It's all about the cash rick. That's what this Country has been about from day one (in terms of it's "discovery" and "settlement") and that's what it continues to be about now. Health, freedom, these are but side-issues. The Government will do what is in it's financial best-interest plain and simple. It's funny, too because Supplement Companies are starting to catch-on to this. So in a couple of years I have a bad feeling the supplement Industry is going to be no different than pharmaceuticals, figuring if they can't beat the system it's better to join the system.

    The reason I say this is because I recently read the second part of a two-part interview with BALCO's Victor Conte. He was asked about if there were any interesting findings (without disclosing confidential medical information on individual clients) in the blood and urine work-ups of Professional atheltes he did when BALCO first really began to get huge. He said probably the most interesting thing they found is that first, the athletes were open and honest about everything they took. Meaning they disclosed in full-detail whatever performance enhancing drugs they were taking mainly because they knew BALCO would find out anyway. Then he went on to say that what was funny about it was that of all the high-end drugs the ahtletes THOUGHT they were taking...most of what they were taking was actually either total bullshit (placebo) or low-grade and low-potency doses of testosterone and nothing more. He said they were very upset to find out how much money they had dumped on "high-end" drugs and "anabolic stacks" when really very few of them had anything in their systems worth purchasing at all.

    I think that's quite funny. But what's disturbing is I've noticed a growing trend of this sort of thing in the Supplement Industry as a whole. An example is MRI. This Company has a GLOWING reputation for creating the NO2 and CE2 supplements which are all the rave. Now they have this thing called "Age Less" which is a high-potencty Alpha Lipoic Acid. ALA is well-known for it's health benefits but MRI is the first company to have come out mainstream with a time-released version of it at 600mg. Now here's the clincher for why it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. A normal single serving of ALA you can get at 300mg per pill (not time-released), so 2 per day and you have the 600mg right? According to the bottle on the MRI 2 caps is 600mg and it has an asterisk by it. Then the recommended doses says to take 1-2 caps in the morning, and 1-2 later on in the day. So if this shit is so great at $50 per bottle for 120 caps why then do I need to take 1200mg of fuckin time-released ALA? Something is amiss if you do the math. Basically, you're paying twice as much for half the amount of pills, needing to double your dose per day to get effectiveness and according to MRI it's all because it's time-released. I think maybe it's because they make more cash that way.
     
  16. MadDildo

    MadDildo Shame Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Oh, definitely.

    My little brother's ex-girlfriend's dad was a OB/GYN and he had some new dude over 1-2x a month, according to Cam.

    But then there are doctors like my dad who tell those guys, "If it doesn't work the best, you can shove it."

    However, what I'm pointing out is that most of that machinery takes place out of the doctors' sphere. They're usually the ones battling the HMO's on such things.
     
  17. MadDildo

    MadDildo Shame Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Actually, I just had a discussion with a cardiologist I know (I coached his kids on my swim team), and he was aware of GI dieting. The problem, he said, is that 90% of people simply won't exercise enough in conjunction with the dieting to effectively lower cholesterol. Even with the knowledge of how to cure their condition, they won't. What can doctors do when their patients are lazy? A doctor cannot treat a person who is not committed to treat himself.

    Concerning your customer, I don't know, Kabuki, why the timed-release Niacin wasn't mentioned earlier. Dr. Dahnke said that for about 50% of the population, this option would work; however, it requires at least 2,000mg per day, and he said many have difficulty tolerating that much (this was news to me, but this guy isn't corrupt, and he knows a whole lot more about this than me).

    But he said that unless someone's diet was truly horrible to begin with, usually changing diet alone will not make a difference. Apparently it requires a level of exercise most aren't willing to accept.

    So the reason for Lipitor to succeed on the scale it has isn't corrupt doctors, it's lazy patients.

    Makes sense to me. I've seen enough check-ups to know that people want to come in and have the doctor magically fix them, and they'll resort to really infantile behavior if he can't do this. It pisses me off. They don't want to do any work, they don't want to hear any bad news. They want him to touch them with a wand and have everything be better, and somehow, they feel they've been wronged if this doesn't happen.

    I'm not saying there aren't bad doctors out there. Plenty, I'm sure. But I am a believer they're outnumbered by bad patients. I've seen it too much.
     
  18. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I can agree to that. RJ (who is NOT a friend of mine) and I had a discussion earlier about the same principal with Pharma. I basically disclosed that my problem isn't with pharmaceuticals. They do what they do and they do operate on a much more grand a scale than the Supplement Industry. I disagree entirely with their business approach and ethics, but that kind of thing is SUPPOSED to be kept in-check by the FDA. Problem is the FDA is financially dependant on the pharmaceutical industry. This should not be allowed. I'm not entirely against lobbying necessarily, but there should be some sort of cap or system in-practice to keep it reasonable. But rather than that tax dollars are being wasted to NOT confirm that people who we KNOW are using steroids are or aren't. Brilliant.

    But Public Ignorance is at the center of it all. And it's a circle. The Public is ignorant and responds in record numbers to scandals, they pressure the Government, who won't pressure the pharmaceutical industry because they don't want to lose the cash. So they pressure the supplement Industry who in-turn draws attention to the Medical Community and the Pharmaceutical Industry who then refers to public ignorance. At some point though someone has to take some responsibility, I'm just unclear as to who it'll be or how it's going to go down. I think eventually Pro Athletes are going to get fed up, because they're the only ones with enough money and people behind them to make a difference.
     
  19. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    So the other day this Soldier is in my store. He says he's in a Command position and is attempting to recover from injuries sustained in Iraq. Now get this: I suggest creatine and he freaks out. Says they test people for drugs in the Military. After a few moments of me staring in bewilderment at his reaction I said "they do know Creatine is not a drug, and is perfectly legal, correct?" He said that in his position, if they notice TOO MUCH enhancement in athletic performance then they get very suspicious and start testing for things. And if they find CREATINE there will be serious repercussions. Anyone want to give a shot at what's wrong with this? Hands?

    I mean let's not even mention steroids. Let's leave aside creatine for just a moment. TOO MUCH enhancement? These are Soldiers, what's left of the Warrior class. Are they saying they don't want troops to have an advantage in War that is of their own physical being? Of all the people who SHOULD be enhanced it's Soldiers. What is it not "fair" for an enemy we're at WAR with if our soldiers are strong and healthy? This guy had serious injuries, too. Now like I said, I'm not talking about steroids because that's a HUGE debate already going on with Cops...but this is CREATINE. There are 17 year-old High School fucking Wrestlers taking creatine. But for Soldiers who risk their lives to defend bureaucrats it's TOO MUCH enhancement?

    I don't even know what more to say. The ridiculousness speaks for itself.
     
  20. UbetterTAPout**

    UbetterTAPout** Banned Banned

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    On a similar note, KK, I was a Navy Seabee, and 2 of my friends got into a lot of trouble for using creatine. Also, 1 kid ran wind sprints forever just because he had a tub of Ultimate Orange while we were in Bosnia. We never got an answer as to why these over the counter products were feared to be too "steroid like."
     

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