Elections NYC mayoral race

[Anung Un Rama]

That is cherry picking and a social worker deescalating and dangerous mental health criminal , is how you get a stabbing on a train randomly, society needs to be protected. More people get struck by lightening then the people you listed which is what 0.0000014% of the U.S. population.

Are you suggesting mental health professionals wear Faraday Cages?

 

[Rob Battisti]

Sending in mental health crisis professionals has been clearly demonstrated to work, and it works well. But people have an instinctive resistance due imo to this feeling that power is being taken away from the police (and by extension thrmselves). In reality it benefits everyone, police very much included.

I have no problem with mental health professionals provided they aren’t sent in along into dangerous situations. I’m simply saying that .33% is a pretty damn good number that isn’t likely to be reduced.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

It is there job to protect the public.... ooof

no its not.

Why the Supreme Court Ruled Police Have No Duty to Protect

Learn the constitutional distinction between limiting state power and guaranteeing individual protection, and how this shapes the legal duties of the police.

legalclarity.org

 

[Limbo Pete]

I have no problem with mental health professionals provided they aren’t sent in along into dangerous situations. I’m simply saying that .33% is a pretty damn good number that isn’t likely to be reduced.

What you can for sure reduce outright is the sheer number of calls police have to respond to.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Good for you being able to "stomach" 3,800 cases of violence by the police. How Libertarian of you.
The thing is part of that 0.33% are George Floyd, Eric Ganer, Tamir Rice, Sonya Massey, Breonna Taylor.
Not only are these people dead, but the cities have to pay out hundreds of millions of dollars in settlements and the public hates the police.
And nobody said the number would ever reach zero. Lets aim for better and improve from there.

That’s a pretty distressing and disturbing take.

There will always be a handful of prolific incidents. Those you mentioned would be .0001% of the 3800. Meaning the other 99.999% you don’t hear about because they are necessary.

 

[Rob Battisti]

What you can for sure reduce outright is the sheer number of calls police have to respond to.

Explain.

 

[Rob Battisti]

NYC is fucked

All Women Transition Team

 

[Limbo Pete]

Explain.

Because in the absence of mental health/crisis responders, police get called for everything... and they aren't needed for everything. There's a flagship program local to me called CAHOOTS which demonstrated this very concretely. The police ended up being their biggest support over the years.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Because in the absence of mental health/crisis responders, police get called for everything... and they aren't needed for everything. There's a flagship program local to me called CAHOOTS which demonstrated this very concretely. The police ended up being their biggest support over the years.

What kinds of calls would they respond to?

 

[Anung Un Rama]

That’s a pretty distressing and disturbing take.

There will always be a handful of prolific incidents. Those you mentioned would be .0001% of the 3800. Meaning the other 99.999% you don’t hear about because they are necessary.

Mine was a distressing take, but suggesting that 99.999% of police violence is justified because they're not blatant murder that make national headlines isn't?
The aim should always be to reduce police violence. We reached 0.33%. Great, we can do better, so lets. I'm really not understanding the push back on trying to improve. Its nonsensical.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Mine was a distressing take, but suggesting that 99.999% of police violence is justified because they're not blatant murder that make national headlines isn't?
The aim should always be to reduce police violence. We reached 0.33%. Great, we can do better, so lets. I'm really not understanding the push back on trying to improve. Its nonsensical.

What is a reasonable goal?

 

[Anung Un Rama]

What is a reasonable goal?

Less than the year before until you get to zero.

 

[Limbo Pete]

What kinds of calls would they respond to?

Here, give this a read. I'm not exaggerating when I say it's been extremely effective, and became staunchly supported by the police

CASE STUDY: CAHOOTS

Amid national conversation in recent months about reducing policing’s footprint in behavioral health matters, the Crisis Assistance Helping out on the…

www.vera.org

Unfortunately, last time I checked the parent organization, White Bird, recently withdrew service to just Springfield, although county services have taken up some of the coverage

Edit: it's worth pointing out that part of the reason they have been so effective is because they are integrated into the EMS system

 

[nhbbear]

Mental health crisis responders are nothing new, and are extremely effective. Where i'm from, their biggest supporters _are_ the police

Oh man, here we go again. For starters, I was the first crisis intervention trained (CIT) police officer on my department many years ago before it became required by most departments. It teaches officers how to deal with mentally ill people and how to differentiate mental illness from say, intoxication so that officers don’t mistake a mentally ill person with being high-however, mental illness and drug/alcohol use do go hand in hand. I got that training in 2015 or so in order to work as the liaison between my department and the homeless.

You will find few people that argue more than me that law enforcement and mental health experts and social workers should be paired up to respond to certain types of calls. I am aware of your city’s program-I think it’s called the behavioral health unit or division. Give credit where it’s due, it is one of the model agencies in this field. Law enforcement is not always equipped to best deal with mentally ill or homeless individuals, however, as I mentioned, seattle and other cities learned the hard way that you can’t replace law enforcement with social workers on some of these calls.

One of my issues with your behavioral response unit and general policing in portland and similar units is that the environment there is such that they are overly permissive to criminal behavior. I have watched videos on these units because I find it interesting and educational. But some of what I watched was ignoring criminal behavior altogether because the person was deemed mentally ill. I watched one incident where a unit like this responded to a call of a guy randomly punching people in the streets. They arrived and tried to talk to him and he was making threats towards those in the unit. He had already hit several people and was threatening them and they just kept talking to him and their ultimate “success” was calming him down and giving him his options to seek mental health treatment. He ended up refusing, but they said they got all his information to keep a file on him so they would be better equipped to deal with him in the future. The dude had already attacked people on the street and was making threats to “knock their fucking heads off” if I recall-it’s been a few years but there is another video I show in one of my classes when we start discussing different types of police specialization units such as swat units, special detective units, crisis units, hostage negotiators, drug task forces, gang units, etc. Anway, they walked away from a violent man and simply let him go without holding him responsible for punching people and making threats and they patted themselves on the back like “we helped a man today” and I’m like-no, you may have calmed down a mentally ill drugged uo man who has now learned there are no consequences when he feels like hitting someone. There’s no justice for the people he struck that day and he absolutely will do it again and refuse the help over and over:

Portland/oregon and your decriminalizing of all drugs has been a total nightmare in my opinion leading to jumps in overdoses and crime and this same unit responds to people that are addicts and high af slumped over in the streets. They hand them a card with helplines on it and walk away saying “well, maybe this one will get some help.” But it’s not just being an addict or high; I have watched videos where these obviously heavily fucked up persons are destroying property and acting disorderly because of their drugs(and probably some mental illness as well) and again, othing is done with them other than offering help that we know they won’t accept and don’t want. I watched one of those videos where a guy was punching someone’s car windows and beating up their car. He didn’t break the windows, but the video clearly shows that he is fucked up both on drugs and mental issues-they call for an e squad that shows up and evaluates him and then they all end up leaving after giving him so advice on getting help- it he was free to continue on his rampage and his criminal behavior was overlooked because he was an addict.

People make the worst assumptions that law enforcement WANT to shoot people or that it is their go to solution for people with mental illness, which is 100% fake news. But sending social workers on potentially dangerous situations without law enforcement back up or partners-is insane but in 2020, everything was insane. Cops were public enemy number one and the attitude was that sending cops to calls like that was pouring gasoline in a brush fire. Pairing officers with mental health experts and social workers is the future and smart practices-but you need that law enforcement element in case things get bad, which happens quite a lot. Mentally ill people are so very unpredictable and can turn on a dime and become violent m. Most don’t, but it happens so frequently that you need someone there that is capable of dealing with a physical threat or if the person suddenly pulls out a weapon.

I even started doing stuff like this long before most places were even thinking about it since my original degree is in psychology and I worked in a child psychiatric hospital before I was a cop. I had the phone numbers for mental health counselors, behavioral units, drug rehabilitation clinics and counseling going back as far as 2005 ish. I also used to teach self-defense classes for the public. It started out after a student asked to speak to my wife and mentioned that she heard I was a cop. She then mentioned her sister had been violently raped and was now suffering from really bad ptsd and asked if I would be willing to teach her and other students self defense. I had been training police officers in defensive tactics for about ten years at that point and put a rush in with the chief to immediately send me to training so I could offer classes for the community. Surprisingly, he immediately agreed and within a month, I had my SHARP certification, which is sexual harassment and rape prevention training. I needed the certification for insurance and certification purposes, but I greatly altered the program. The first group I taught was a rape survivors group and I invited that student and her sister. It was intimidating to talk about rape and self defense tactics to a group of severely traumatized women. I was afraid I might trigger them so we brought in a female officer and had her trained as well. But it was one of the most rewarding training sessions I have ever had. That led to me teaching other groups and businesses-including a place that dealt solely with autism. I trained them and then in exchange, asked them to train me with how to deal with autistic individuals since I had previously had a call involving a highly autistic and non-verbal individual who was having sensory issues while at the casino and it was a very difficult call to sort out. So they trained me a few hours over a period of time and I got all their contact info and from that point on, when I got a call for an autistic person in crisis, I would show up and then call one of them to come to the scene.

And I sought out de-escalation training to pass on to my department, it there are actually no places within driving distance for that type of training for law enforcement-so I did what I always do-research and incorporated it into my defensive tactics training for the officers. I stressed how incredibly important it is to try and de-escalate thie situation by remaining as calm as possible, avoid shouting if possible-but it’s not always possible because sometimes remaining passive can invite an attack.

Point being, that I have been doing this stuff for a long time and my first job after the police department was as a youth crisis response team member for a non profit where we would get sent to houses where kids were acting wild. These are calls that I used to respond to as a cop. I used to tell parents that I am not a parenting coach and would end up calming the situation down, telling the parents some options, and leave if there was no violence or anything. They weren’t really police related matters. As the crisis intervention team for children, we would go on these same calls so police don’t have to and it freed them up for actual police calls. They ranged in stuff like fighting with a sibling to full on mental health crisis issues. We would stabilize them, talk to them, and then hook the parents up with resources. I was technically a social worker during that time period. But it is one more tool to fill in the gaps to deal with stuff that police have been getting sent on for the last few decades.

 

[UberHere]

Mental health workers deal with deranged lunatics constantly no matter what. That's the job. There's a crucial distinction between law enforcement and mental health crisis response: just being crazy isn't illegal.

They deal with them in a controlled environment where meds are given, the doors are locked, security guards are present, and there are no weapons.

 

[UberHere]

You have clearly never saw somebody go from calm to complete hysterics in the snap of a finger.

Not to mention domestic disputes are some of the most dangerous calls police respond to.

 

[fedoriswar37]

Not to mention domestic disputes are some of the most dangerous calls police respond to.

Sure but some 25 year old social worker is going to have no problem de escalating.

 

[nostradumbass]

I have no problem with mental health professionals provided they aren’t sent in along into dangerous situations. I’m simply saying that .33% is a pretty damn good number that isn’t likely to be reduced.

Pretty interesting how 0.33% can either be a massive number or completely insignificant depending on what they're trying to support. When it's late term abortions, "that's not even a thing, it's only like 1 or 2% of abortions", and when it's crime generally, your odds of being the victim of violent crime in NYC are about 1 in 129, or .78%, and that equals "perfectly safe city", and when some NGO tries to downplay nationwide BLM riots, the best they can possibly come up with was "93% peaceful, only 7% turned into violent riots", which of course means "overwhelmingly peaceful movement so stop criticizing the violent riots".

All of these numbers are multiples to orders of magnitude higher than the 0.33% of police interactions that escalate to violence, yet that is the one that means policing is "rotten to the core" and requires massive changes.

Unless you live in NYC, I say let them have it. This guy is going to be the poster boy for all future DSA candidates in future elections, so if crime goes up, any of the tax base leave, growth slows or stops, prices go up, he'll be the guy future DSA candidates, including AOC trying to run for president in 2028, have to stand by in front of sane voters, or do what they always do and scramble for someone else to blame and claim "that wasn't real socialism" yet again.

 

[ShadowRun]

no its not.

Why the Supreme Court Ruled Police Have No Duty to Protect

Learn the constitutional distinction between limiting state power and guaranteeing individual protection, and how this shapes the legal duties of the police.

legalclarity.org

interesting I have heard some of that recently. It ties into this but I guess is more about not being able to sue since they can't protect each person individually. So social workers have less of a duty but some cities have crisis teams like Eugene and Denver.

"Police can legally watch you get attacked and do nothing and you can't sue them for it under federal civil rights law (42 U.S.C. § 1983).




This has been reaffirmed repeatedly:

• Parkland (2018): Federal appeals court ruled deputies had no duty to protect students at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.
• Uvalde (ongoing lawsuits): Same principle applies—police waited 77 minutes while children were murdered.

Why does this rule exist?

• Public Duty Doctrine: Police owe a duty to society as a whole, not to any specific person. If they owed a duty to every individual, they'd be sued into bankruptcy every time any crime happened anywhere.
• Constitutional design: The Bill of Rights mostly tells the government what it can't do to you, not what positive services it must provide"

 

[Rob Battisti]

Pretty interesting how 0.33% can either be a massive number or completely insignificant depending on what they're trying to support. When it's late term abortions, "that's not even a thing, it's only like 1 or 2% of abortions", and when it's crime generally, your odds of being the victim of violent crime in NYC are about 1 in 129, or .78%, and that equals "perfectly safe city", and when some NGO tries to downplay nationwide BLM riots, the best they can possibly come up with was "93% peaceful, only 7% turned into violent riots", which of course means "overwhelmingly peaceful movement so stop criticizing the violent riots".

All of these numbers are multiples to orders of magnitude higher than the 0.33% of police interactions that escalate to violence, yet that is the one that means policing is "rotten to the core" and requires massive changes.

Unless you live in NYC, I say let them have it. This guy is going to be the poster boy for all future DSA candidates in future elections, so if crime goes up, any of the tax base leave, growth slows or stops, prices go up, he'll be the guy future DSA candidates, including AOC trying to run for president in 2028, have to stand by in front of sane voters, or do what they always do and scramble for someone else to blame and claim "that wasn't real socialism" yet again.

Damn — couldn’t have said it better. Post of the week right here.