Not Just a Cohencidence (Mueller/Investigation Thread v.20)

[Quequeg]

Maybe you're just out of touch with America. Trump's most recent poll numbers are close to the highest of his presidency. He's been getting more popular over the past month-plus.

Polls are a fake tool of deep state, remember?

 

[PolishHeadlock]

The point was that it often makes sense to plead guilty of a crime even when one is actually innocent of it.

It makes sense when you can't afford to defend yourself and you are facing the death penalty or life in prison.

Cohen can afford to defend himself, knows high powered attorney's and has a relationship with the President of the United States who isn't shy about issuing pardons and often talks about his ability to issue pardons.

You're stance on this is basically "well we don't know if anyone is ever actually guilty so they are all innocent."

 

[waiguoren]

If Cohen is guilty, so is Trump, he was acting on Trump's behalf.

You do realize that five of the seven charges that Cohen pleaded guilty to were tax evasion charges that had nothing to do with Trump?

The other two are minor campaign violations that touch Trump. It's overwhelmingly likely that Cohen agreed to plead guilty to those two charges in exchange for SDNY/Mueller pumping the brakes on their investigation of Cohen's other dealings. The guy appears to be a sleazeball of epic proportions.

 

[waiguoren]

Polls are a fake tool of deep state, remember?

I'm sorry you believe that. I've been one of the strongest advocates for polling on these forums.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

Waigaruen is Jaden Smith!

Hello, like... hello

 

[Quequeg]

You do realize that five of the seven charges that Cohen pleaded guilty to were tax evasion charges that had nothing to do with Trump?

The other two are minor campaign violations that touch Trump. It's overwhelmingly likely that Cohen agreed to plead guilty to those two charges in exchange for SDNY/Mueller pumping the brakes on their investigation of Cohen's other dealings. The guy appears to be a sleazeball of epic proportions.

No kidding. Trump is on tape discussing the payments.

 

[Prefect]

Of course the above is true. It's "profound" because many people in this thread are convinced that Trump's lawyers are restricting a potential Mueller-Trump interview because (they believe) everyone knows Trump would commit perjury. In reality, Trump could be the most honest man in the world (BTW: he isn't) and it would still be inadvisable for him to consent to Mueller's interview.

They are correct though. The interview would and could wander into the weeds. Jimmy Carter would have never had an issue with an interview because he was an upstanding citizen and politician. You are foolish if you believe that he won't be put on the spot to admit to criminal or fraudulent wrong doing or commit perjury. I have a hard time thinking of a politician you would want less on the stand than Trump with what he did before becoming president and while president. It isn't at all if he will be hit with something but whoever picking something that he can't walk away from.

 

[PolishHeadlock]

This is the most frustrating thing about the entire Trump debacle. He will go down as one the most dishonest politicians to ever serve (if you can call it that) our country. He will go down in history as a disaster but his base will NEVER see it. They will continue to be deluded and wrong, learn nothing from it, and by extension leave the country open to the same shit show in the future. The door has been opened now.

Imagine what a truly qualified, intelligent, and nefariously mentally ill person could do to the country if Trump can get away with this shit.

Don't be tricked into thinking these people have been duped by trump.

They know exactly what he is, what's happened and what's happening.

They don't care. The ends justify the means because he feeds their tribal fears.

 

[waiguoren]

It makes sense when you can't afford to defend yourself and you are facing the death penalty or life in prison.

Cohen can afford to defend himself, knows high powered attorney's and has a relationship with the President of the United States who isn't shy about issuing pardons and often talks about his ability to issue pardons.

You're stance on this is basically "well we don't know if anyone is ever actually guilty so they are all innocent."

No, that's not my stance.

It seems clear that Cohen was facing serious fraud/conspiracy charges unrelated to Trump that would have put him in the slammer for well over a decade. Now he wil get off much easier. In his mind, it doesn't matter if the payment to Clifford was actually a "campaign contribution", he was happy to sign away to save his own hide.

 

[MikeMcMann]

This is the core of your post, so I'll ignore the rest.

Your claim above is true. However, that's not the comparison I made. The comparison I made was between a) those being squeezed into signing a plea agreement admitting guilt for a minor offense vs. b) those who plead not guilty to that minor offense but are found guilty.

There is no part of being in the justice system as an accused that does not involve being squeezed and pressure and duress, and coercion. NONE.

For instance in the Manafort conviction one could argue that the case against him was political driven, the prosecutors were biased, the evidence was selective and therefore the verdict is suspect and it would have been far ore compelling and believable had he come forth, admitting his crimes and provided the evidence to support that. And almost certainly we will hear some of these arguments as more Trump cronies are convicted.

In other words its all just very obvious partisan spin.

there are no conditions in which the confession along with the providing of all the evidence to support your guilt is less believable than if Cohen had been denying it all along and claiming this was a sham, and politically driven and convicted.

 

[Quequeg]

Don't be tricked into thinking these people have been duped by trump.

They know exactly what he is, what's happened and what's happening.

They don't care. The ends justify the means because he feeds their tribal fears.

There is no talking to them, trying to get them to see the light. The only thing that can be done is to outvote them.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

When I was a kid, I happened to meet my little brother as he was exiting my room with some money.
I demanded the cash, he handed it over... and expected that would be the end of it because he'd given it back voluntarily.

I honestly haven't encountered this sort of reasoning since 1980.

 

[waiguoren]

They are correct though. The interview would and could wander into the weeds. Jimmy Carter would have never had an issue with an interview because he was an upstanding citizen and politician. You are foolish if you believe that he won't be put on the spot to admit to criminal or fraudulent wrong doing or commit perjury. I have a hard time thinking of a politician you would want less on the stand than Trump with what he did before becoming president and while president. It isn't at all if he will be hit with something but whoever picking something that he can't walk away from.

The Carter thing is pure specualtion. I'm confident that Carter's attorneys would also not agree to Mueller's terms if Carter were in this situation.

Trump's biggest problem is that he rambles and doesn't understand the law well enough. Just today he was trying to defend himself against the silly campaign contribution charge by saying that he's innocent because he paid the money himself. In fact, his position would be slightly better if campaign funds had been used. In that case the Trump Campaign and not Trump himself would be implicated.

 

[PolishHeadlock]

I wrote the opposite. I think Cohen is guilty of far more than five counts of tax evasion. That would explain why he was so quick to sign the plea agreement.

The point that others were arguing with me about is different. Basically, it's not clear that paying hush money to a mistress is a form of campaign contribution. If it is, how far can you stretch this definition? If Trump had a buddy who gave him a free haircut, and that haircut made him look better on TV, would that be an in-kind campaign contribution? If not, why not?

 

[Rational Poster]

I wrote the opposite. I think Cohen is guilty of far more than five counts of tax evasion. That would explain why he was so quick to sign the plea agreement.

The point that others were arguing with me about is different. Basically, it's not clear that paying hush money to a mistress is a form of campaign contribution. If it is, how far can you stretch this definition? If Trump had a buddy who gave him a free haircut, and that haircut made him look better on TV, would that be an in-kind campaign contribution? If not, why not?

The payments were made to quiet a story that would impact the campaign during the campaign. Trump is on tape discussing the payments. He also didn't sign anything in regards to the transfer of wealth, so it could also be considered conspiracy/cover up. He knew what he was doing was wrong and didn't want his name on it.

Cohen is willing to testify that all of this is true and is willing to serve time for his own crimes in order to do it.

It's pretty cut and dry, my dude.

 

[waiguoren]

For instance in the Manafort conviction one could argue that the case against him was political driven, the prosecutors were biased, the evidence was selective and therefore the verdict is suspect and it would have been far ore compelling and believable had he come forth, admitting his crimes and provided the evidence to support that.

That would be a ridiculous argument regardless of who made it. Anyway, Manafort wasn't successfully squeezed. He probably turned down multiple plea offers and stood trial. The convictions in his trial should be viewed very differently from the charges that Cohen plead guilty to.

It will be interesting to see if Trump pardons Manafort. That would be a bad look for Trump politically, no doubt.

 

[Quequeg]

That would be a ridiculous argument regardless of who made it. Anyway, Manafort wasn't successfully squeezed. He probably turned down multiple plea offers and stood trial. The convictions in his trial should be viewed very differently from the charges that Cohen plead guilty to.

It will be interesting to see if Trump pardons Manafort. That would be a bad look for Trump politically, no doubt.

And you will be here defending the pardon.

 

[zebby23]

Don't be tricked into thinking these people have been duped by trump.

They know exactly what he is, what's happened and what's happening.

They don't care. The ends justify the means because he feeds their tribal fears.

Republicans need a messiah. They need someone to look at as a leader and that’s also due to their tribal mentality. There is no politician on earth that I would stand by if he/she were in Trumps current predicament. Smart people put country over party and Republicans need a messiah

 

[waiguoren]

You do realize the campaign finance violation in question assumes it's an "in-kind contribution to the Trump campaign for president" for another person to pay hush money to a woman Trump slept with?

By the same reasoning, anything that helps the Trump campaign could be construed as an in-kind contribution to the campaign. Where do you draw the line? If Trump buys a bunch of fruit to eat for energy, that will benefit his campaign. Should the purchase of that fruit be considered an "in-kind campaign contribution"?

 

[waiguoren]

The payments were made to quiet a story that would impact the campaign during the campaign.

Trump's purchase of a massage benefitted his campaign by giving him more energy on the trail. Is that an in-kind campaign contribution? You can't just say "I know it when I see it." The jurors in the Edwards case couldn't agree either.