Nog vs Sergei 18 years ago

[HHJ]

Back then though I think there was much more of a culture of you'd watch Pride, the UFC maybe FEG and a few other orgs as well, Pride could claim to be the best but it wasnt trying to sell itself as the entirety of MMA, more like the cream of the crop.

I think that meant Pride was very focused on finding elite talent, you had some native guys who got by on pro wrestling or judo popularity but mostly it was elite fighters that filled up the cards. If they had a choice between say going after Mark Hunt or going after a dozen okish guys to fill up cards they went for Mark Hunt.

They also knew how to promote their undercard fighters much better

 

[Hellowhosthat]

I think that is a pretty fundamental difference as well, Pride never really tried to present itself as the entirety of MMA, as the best MMA org yes but there was generally a focus on high end matches.

In terms of the modern talent base I tend to think "you get what you pay for" sums it up well, really the UFC's model is based on having a few big fights per year but mostly on having events every week or two, what it needs to fo this is lots of "ok" fighters.

Their model is to run a few stacked PPV's a year (usually the tmobile and MSG ones) and the rest of the cards are generally to sort the rankings out.

They can't really operate the same way PRIDE did I don't think. PRIDE was more about building a few stars and structuring everything around the same guys while UFC wants a full pipeline of fighters.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

I wonder how long until these fuckin newborn baby marks start saying "LHW has historically been a garbage div" like they do w HW now,even though that isnt true at all either.

The truth is really I'd argue that HW back in the early 00's was actually at the very forefront of MMA.

Again I think MMA isnt really like other sports, there are naturally fewer HW's but if you pay to get them involved then you can have the talent base.

Their model is to run a few stacked PPV's a year (usually the tmobile and MSG ones) and the rest of the cards are generally to sort the rankings out.

They can't really operate the same way PRIDE did I don't think. PRIDE was more about building a few stars and structuring everything around the same guys while UFC wants a full pipeline of fighters.

I think its actually a model partly built on scarcity, if you had more quality fighters it would be harder to sell the PPVs.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

They didnt need to promote what everyone knew. A lot less casuals around.

They still needed to promote lol. If they'd been better at promoting and structuring a long term plan then they might still be around.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

The truth is really I'd argue that HW back in the early 00's was actually at the very forefront of MMA.

Again I think MMA isnt really like other sports, there are naturally fewer HW's but if you pay to get them involved then you can have the talent base.

I think in the early days smaller fighters didn't really start training MMA as there wasn't really much of an avenue for them to make money. Ones who did it would just be for the love of the sport and even then it was tough for them to find somewhere where they had competition. It was probably 2007/8 before UFC even started taking LW seriously, never mind guys smaller than that.

 

[HHJ]

They still needed to promote lol. If they'd been better at promoting and structuring a long term plan then they might still be around.

I think that their criminal associations were going to tank them sooner or later,no matter what they did. What they tried to do might have worked,id theyd done it earlier,but it was probably too late. Even if they made headway into the USA the UFC would have probably still gobbled them up. Losing their tv deal killed them. PRIDEFC did rule the MMA landscape for a decade though. Thats just bein real.

What a time.

 

[HHJ]

I think in the early days smaller fighters didn't really start training MMA as there wasn't really much of an avenue for them to make money. Ones who did it would just be for the love of the sport and even then it was tough for them to find somewhere where they had competition. It was probably 2007/8 before UFC even started taking LW seriously, never mind guys smaller than that.

Faber was smart. He knew how to market himself and his hometown base followed him wherever he went. He was one of the first small guys who understood how to self promote.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Faber was smart. He knew how to market himself and his hometown base followed him wherever he went. He was one of the first small guys who understood how to self promote.

I'd argue Faber is the main reason why the lower classes are actually in the UFC at all.

 

[HHJ]

I'd argue Faber is the main reason why the lower classes are actually in the UFC at all.

Dana was fuckin crestfallen when Barao beat him for the first bw belt

 

[Deleted member 110072]

I think in the early days smaller fighters didn't really start training MMA as there wasn't really much of an avenue for them to make money. Ones who did it would just be for the love of the sport and even then it was tough for them to find somewhere where they had competition. It was probably 2007/8 before UFC even started taking LW seriously, never mind guys smaller than that.

Yeah, HW was at the forefront because it had the most investment in it at that point.

 

[mjfan23]

Lol


"best UFC hw champ ever" lol.

Mir had already killed him...just like he killed Nog in Nog's next fight.

And it was an interum title that Mir shoulda been fighting for in the first place.

Nice attempt at making Timmy seem better than he was tho.

who held the most title wins and defenses record ? Mir or Timmeh?
Facts> your feelings

 

[mjfan23]

Sakuraba and Barnett were pro wrestlers.


Fedor straight ducked Brock. Spin it however you want. I guess dropping 3 straight in SF made more sense Fiscally.

LMAO yes and Saku and Barnett didn’t win the pride belts like fake wrestler Brock did in ufc. Any other bits of self ownage you want to engage in? Might as well get it out all at once

 

[MartinGibson86]

who held the most title wins and defenses record ? Mir or Timmeh?
Facts>your feelings

Stlvia. Mir was still way better tho. In case you forgot, he nearly died in a motorcycle accident. ummediately after winning the belt.
Who won all 3 fights against Nog and Sylvia?
3-0...3 brutal finishes...Nog made it to the 2nd round once tho
Facts>your feelings

Change your SN to "PeteMyersFan" lol

 

[MartinGibson86]

LMAO yes and Saku and Barnett didn’t win the pride belts like fake wrestler Brock did in ufc. Any other bits of self ownage you want to engage in? Might as well get it out all at once

"Fake wrestler" who won an NCAA title.


WTF's wrong with you? You sound like a petulant child. Barnett beat Nog too.

Facts>your feeings

 

[pankrat]

Bringing up Sapp shouldnt even count in this discussion considering Sapp had well over 100 lbs on Nog. if it was your point that Nog couldnt take down a guy that big,thats not really a great point. We are comparing Nog to today's fighters who are not going to be near that size.

And if that IS such a big point,we should also point out that Sapp was submitted on the ground,wether he was taken there or not.

Read the post I was replying to before answering

 

[pankrat]

If Nog could take down Mirko, he absolutely could take Francis or Gane down. Hell, even Francis wrestlefucked Gane. Prime Nog ate Mirkos kick without getting ktfo, his chin was granite. He would likely beat Gane and it'd be a toss-up vs Francis.

Wand not much before or Kongo not much later took down Mirko as well.

He "could" take them down, but the chances Francis makes him pay for his atempts are higher imo.
Gane's grappling hasnt been tested as much but he has better movement than any guy his size we ever saw, which makes way harder to initiate grappling exchanges with him in the first place

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Wand not much before or Kongo not much later took down Mirko as well.

He "could" take them down, but the chances Francis makes him pay for his atempts are higher imo.
Gane's grappling hasnt been tested as much but he has better movement than any guy his size we ever saw, which makes way harder to initiate grappling exchanges with him in the first place

You keep mentioning that first Wanderlei fight but again thats a VERY green Crocop months into a part time MMA career, I don't think you really see him start to devolp his takedown defence until the second Fujita fight and tis not until 2003 it really looks good.

I would say Nog's double leg brust wasnt always consistant, some of that werent amazingly timed BUT some of them were, he was fast for a HW and did link them into his striking quite well, Ironically Mirko probably caused him the most problems because he couldnt enguage him much due to how effective his body kick was.

Good movement for striking doesnt automatically mean good takedown defence either and honestly I don't think we've really seen Gane tested in terms of extreme ability, so far he's basically just been able to slowly control distance he's not had to show deal much with guys really pushing forward fast against him either for striking or grappling.

 

[pankrat]

You keep mentioning that first Wanderlei fight but again thats a VERY green Crocop months into a part time MMA career, I don't think you really see him start to devolp his takedown defence until the second Fujita fight and tis not until 2003 it really looks good.

I would say Nog's double leg brust wasnt always consistant, some of that werent amazingly timed BUT some of them were, he was fast for a HW and did link them into his striking quite well, Ironically Mirko probably caused him the most problems because he couldnt enguage him much due to how effective his body kick was.

Good movement for striking doesnt automatically mean good takedown defence either and honestly I don't think we've really seen Gane tested in terms of extreme ability, so far he's basically just been able to slowly control distance he's not had to show deal much with guys really pushing forward fast against him either for striking or grappling.

He used Nog taking down Mirko in 2003 as a prove of how unstoppable Nog's TD were.

Well, that's just one year after the Wand fight.

You have an issue with my reference but you are all fine with his. Check that bias, mate.

Then I reference the way Kongo showed flaws in Mirko's grappling and doesnt serve you neither.
What can I tell you.

Personally, I think even the Yoshida fight in 2006 is not such a good sign of how to avoid grapping exchanges. Actually the opposite.

Mirko is not the pinnacle of TDD in MMA for me. No, its not. Never was. Some posters here pretend to sell the idea that "if fighter x took down Mirko....any modern fighter is getting taken down". Well, I dont agree, at all.

 

[mkt]

It's a good fight, but TBH the stand up looks pretty slow, not a whole lot of switching stances or faints or leg kicks like you see today.

And those TD of Nog's, LOL, he'd hardly get anyone on the ground.

 

[mkt]

Mirko is not the pinnacle of TDD in MMA for me. No, its not. Never was. Some posters here pretend to sell the idea that "if fighter x took down Mirko....any modern fighter is getting taken down". Well, I dont agree, at all.

Mirko's TDD is WAY overrated because he sprawled on some TDs from a 40+ year old Mark Coleman that were telegraphed from 10-feet away. Seriously. JDS stuffing Carwin's TDs was more impressive than that, but you can't argue with Pride nostalgists....it's a religion and criticizing any of their idols is forbidden.