Nick Diaz wants Mayorga or Vargas

[nicedistraction]

So Diaz is a coward? Im willing to bet you've never even touched a girls titties, let alone done anything near what Nick Diaz has done in his career. Can someone ban this clown?

the fucks wrong with you

 

[consortium11]

Nick gets away with his style in mma for a very good reason, here's why: All of his opponents are much smaller than him, giving him a distinct and overwhelming reach advantage. Normally, the solution for a smaller fighter is to close the distance and stay on the inside of a larger opponents punches, that said, nick's opponents remain in his optimum striking range for fear of his bjj skills (which, even though it pains me to say it, are fucking top notch). If he fights a boxing match, that threat is gone, so I see any good boxer closing the distance and kicking his ass. Nick should understand that it's his bjj that scares his opponents into standing back in his range rather then the superiority of his boxing.

That's all well and good but it belays the real reason Nick Diaz's style works in MMA.

The vast majority of MMA striking is technically terrible.

Take someone like Scott Smith. He's a decent MMA striker... notably for KO wins over Noke, Martin and Radach. Yet his standup is almost entirely based around the fact that he hits hard. He wings punches, doesn't have a jab to speak of, has non-existent defence and the only variety in punch technique is because he's off balance from throwing the last one. Against someone throwing single shot haymakers someone like Diaz, who has the modicum of boxing knowledge needed to use distance effectively, throw to head and body with regularity and not rely on single Hail Mary punches, should and did take him apart.

The pattern repeats itself; Gomi (who was about even with Diaz standing for much of their bout) throws single wild shots, Lawler throws huge bombs, Frank "I'm a knockout artist now" Shamrock attempts to throw big punches, Zaromskis may have slightly more varied striking but has always been incredibly wild, Cyborg may have slightly toned himself down from his Manhoef days where he essentially locked his arms at a 45 degree angle and rotated his torso very fast until he or his opponent fell over but he's still a wild brawler.

The person who's given Diaz the most trouble standing also happens to be one of the few MMA fighters who also happens to have a little technique standing... and Diaz has 20 odd lbs and inches of reach on him. That's not a shock right there... Diaz's style is asking for trouble against someone who doesn't resort to the throwing of bombs from "crazy angles" and has learnt there's more to standup fighting than having "bricks for hands".

Add in that there are very few MMA fighters who can effectively defend themselves. There's virtually no counter-striking which means that once Diaz starts putting together one of his 9 punch combos he's free to finish it, little head movement and perhaps the cardinal sin... when hit most MMA fighters who aren't shooting for the takedown go straight back until they hit the cage at which stage they put their arms around their head and wait for the barrage to stop. It's then that Diaz gets to do his best work, boxing their ears, throwing the odd uppercut but mainly brutalising the body.

More power to Diaz. He's found a style that maximises his talents (reach, work rate, ability to not really have to worry about getting put on his back) while minimising he weaknesses (limited power, poor head movement) and its been (and will probably continue to be) highly effective. Daley will be a test; he's got huge power compared to Diaz's other opponents and at least some technique (even if he still rarely throws anything other than a hook or uppercut) but even then he's still basically a Hail Mary puncher and Diaz has a huge reach advantage.

 

[HankTheHookworm]

So Diaz is a coward? Im willing to bet you've never even touched a girls titties, let alone done anything near what Nick Diaz has done in his career. Can someone ban this clown?

Yeah. I'd say going from running your mouth that you "want Mayweather" (still a bitch move considering Diaz fights at 168 not 147) to calling out washed up Welterweights (in the real boxing weight class, not the made up mma ones) is pretty cowardly. He must have woken up from another night of binge weed smoking and realized he called out Mayweather, so he rectified it and said he meant Mayorga or Vargas.

 

[Athenry04]

That's all well and good but it belays the real reason Nick Diaz's style works in MMA.

The vast majority of MMA striking is technically terrible.

Take someone like Scott Smith. He's a decent MMA striker... notably for KO wins over Noke, Martin and Radach. Yet his standup is almost entirely based around the fact that he hits hard. He wings punches, doesn't have a jab to speak of, has non-existent defence and the only variety in punch technique is because he's off balance from throwing the last one. Against someone throwing single shot haymakers someone like Diaz, who has the modicum of boxing knowledge needed to use distance effectively, throw to head and body with regularity and not rely on single Hail Mary punches, should and did take him apart.

The pattern repeats itself; Gomi (who was about even with Diaz standing for much of their bout) throws single wild shots, Lawler throws huge bombs, Frank "I'm a knockout artist now" Shamrock attempts to throw big punches, Zaromskis may have slightly more varied striking but has always been incredibly wild, Cyborg may have slightly toned himself down from his Manhoef days where he essentially locked his arms at a 45 degree angle and rotated his torso very fast until he or his opponent fell over but he's still a wild brawler.

The person who's given Diaz the most trouble standing also happens to be one of the few MMA fighters who also happens to have a little technique standing... and Diaz has 20 odd lbs and inches of reach on him. That's not a shock right there... Diaz's style is asking for trouble against someone who doesn't resort to the throwing of bombs from "crazy angles" and has learnt there's more to standup fighting than having "bricks for hands".

Add in that there are very few MMA fighters who can effectively defend themselves. There's virtually no counter-striking which means that once Diaz starts putting together one of his 9 punch combos he's free to finish it, little head movement and perhaps the cardinal sin... when hit most MMA fighters who aren't shooting for the takedown go straight back until they hit the cage at which stage they put their arms around their head and wait for the barrage to stop. It's then that Diaz gets to do his best work, boxing their ears, throwing the odd uppercut but mainly brutalising the body.

More power to Diaz. He's found a style that maximises his talents (reach, work rate, ability to not really have to worry about getting put on his back) while minimising he weaknesses (limited power, poor head movement) and its been (and will probably continue to be) highly effective. Daley will be a test; he's got huge power compared to Diaz's other opponents and at least some technique (even if he still rarely throws anything other than a hook or uppercut) but even then he's still basically a Hail Mary puncher and Diaz has a huge reach advantage.

Sticky?

 

[HankTheHookworm]

Sticky?

I second this. It's one of the best posts I've read on this forum.

 

[kahymo]

it will be a nice check for Diaz, but ending with some broken bones,

anyway can be hyped up, especially with Mayorga antics, that would be something having Mayorga and Diaz promoting the fight, expect a couple brawls in the build up

 

[OGquickdraw]

So Diaz is a coward? Im willing to bet you've never even touched a girls titties, let alone done anything near what Nick Diaz has done in his career. Can someone ban this clown?

Can someone gay this clown?

Did he insult your boyfriend and hurt your feelings or what?

MMA fighters are C Class fighters who got cut from football teams in high school then grew up and couldnt make the big bucks boxing. So to say he can step into a world where his skill are at an ametuer level is as appalling as it is funny. Hes a coward for calling out aged fighters who are viewed to have little left is what hes saying you dolt. Someone better tell Diaz this is boxing and hes not gonna get to lay on his back with another man between his legs.

 

[RichardSwingslo]

Can someone gay this clown?

Did he insult your boyfriend and hurt your feelings or what?

MMA fighters are C Class fighters who got cut from football teams in high school then grew up and couldnt make the big bucks boxing. So to say he can step into a world where his skill are at an ametuer level is as appalling as it is funny. Hes a coward for calling out aged fighters who are viewed to have little left is what hes saying you dolt. Someone better tell Diaz this is boxing and hes not gonna get to lay on his back with another man between his legs.

I remember when someone else on this forum said the exact same thing, it's true regarding some fighters, but that is a very broad statement. A lot of MMA fighters are great fighters just not good boxers, there's a difference. It's like saying Boxers are c class kick boxers or C class thai fighters. Shit George Foreman made his early career on just punching hard, his technique used to be awful.

 

[nicedistraction]

ok lets just NOT turn this into an mma v boxing debate

 

[RichardSwingslo]

ok lets just NOT turn this into an mma v boxing debate

Yeah I bit, Damnit!

 

[Abishai**]

As Consort said, striking/boxing in MMA is terrible. You have a handful of fighters who have good boxing skills, but the vast majority delude themselves into thinking they are world class strikers.

As of right now, MMA fighters who have the best "boxing" skills would have to be Bj Penn, GSP, Kenny Florian and several others. These guys have won fights simply employing a jab.

kenny florian used it beautifully against Gomi, GSP against Kosh, and Penn against most of his opponents.

Nick Diaz's striking is sub par. Watch all of his fights where he keeps it standing. He gets tagged quite frequently and against a fighter with Good boxing skills, he won't last long.

I think Paul daley is going to knock him out because Diaz is stupid enough to stand with him.

 

[nicedistraction]

my thing is that boxing is not punching. punching is punching. boxing is a complex sport, many of the nuisances of which are not useful in mma or at least not commonly applied in mma.

 

[consortium11]

I think the moment that really sold on how poor the fundamental striking basics of supposedly decent MMA strikers were was when in quick succession we had Hardy/GSP and Fitch/Saunders.

Both bouts featured people known as strikers who knew they had no chance of winning the bout if they were put on their backs. Saunders had a large reach advantage over Fitch and was against an opponent who likes to bully his way into the clinch rather than shoot from a distance. Hardy didn't actually have any reach on GSP but he did have a decent heigh advantage.

In both fights an effective... even semi-effective... jab could have made a world of difference. For Sauders it should have been the very basis of his gameplan... with his reach advantage every time Fitch took that step he needed to close the difference he should have had a jab in his face. For Hardy and considering that GSP is more likely to shoot than clinch it wasn't as vital but even so a hard jab thrown out with accuracy and bad intentions would have made GSP shoot from further out (making it easier for Hardy to either sprawl or counter) and prevent him from mixing his standup and takedowns so well.

Yet I'm not sure I really saw a single jab. I'm sure some were thrown... the standard flick/pawed jab with nothing behind it normally thrown while completely out of range. But when it mattered both instead opted to throw wide hooks and looping power hands... or in Sauders case TMA kicks... none of which did they any good.

 

[mikeyt113]

Nick Diaz vs Mayorga damm now that would be some shit talk.

 

[smitri6]

I think the moment that really sold on how poor the fundamental striking basics of supposedly decent MMA strikers were was when in quick succession we had Hardy/GSP and Fitch/Saunders.

Both bouts featured people known as strikers who knew they had no chance of winning the bout if they were put on their backs. Saunders had a large reach advantage over Fitch and was against an opponent who likes to bully his way into the clinch rather than shoot from a distance. Hardy didn't actually have any reach on GSP but he did have a decent heigh advantage.

In both fights an effective... even semi-effective... jab could have made a world of difference. For Sauders it should have been the very basis of his gameplan... with his reach advantage every time Fitch took that step he needed to close the difference he should have had a jab in his face. For Hardy and considering that GSP is more likely to shoot than clinch it wasn't as vital but even so a hard jab thrown out with accuracy and bad intentions would have made GSP shoot from further out (making it easier for Hardy to either sprawl or counter) and prevent him from mixing his standup and takedowns so well.

Yet I'm not sure I really saw a single jab. I'm sure some were thrown... the standard flick/pawed jab with nothing behind it normally thrown while completely out of range. But when it mattered both instead opted to throw wide hooks and looping power hands... or in Sauders case TMA kicks... none of which did they any good.

I don't disagree with your premise, in fact I really think you are right, but the theory of doing this and actually doing it aren't nearly so cut and dry. There is a compromise that you have to make when it comes to sprawling and putting power on a punch. It really comes down to this - in order to put power in a punch you have to put your body into it, which means that you have momentum in your motion. That's great for throwing a punch with power, but it makes it damn hard to sprawl. With a jab you're probably not going to be putting a whole of torque into it, but you still have to turn your hips to get some power behind it. So as you're punching, you're center of gravity is way out in front of you, so you're unable to properly sprawl for a shot and are going to be easier to throw if you get clinched.

So when we look at this again, it comes down to more than just being to throw a jab - GSP can throw a jab all day because the threat of a takedown is always there as well as being very difficult to take down himself. Against Gomi, Florian was striking with someone who wanted to fight on the feet and didn't know what a counter cross was. When you have someone who really just wants to bully in for the clinch or shoot, like Florian dealt with in Maynard, you can't afford to plant your legs to throw a stiff punch because you need to be ready to sprawl. You can throw a pawing jab to keep some distance and set up your sprawl, but anything that really requires turning your hips is going to have significant downsides as well.