Nick Diaz Boxing style

Nick Diaz has fought a boxing match, thus he is, or was a boxer.
There's a fair bit of elitism going on here. Just because Diaz isn't technical or pretty to watch, doesn't mean he can't box at all. Put him in with a national level journey man, he'd stand a decent chance and put on a good show. Put him in a good level international level fight and he'd get beat up.
Does that mean the journeyman that lost to Diaz can't box? No does it fuck.

This will probably start a shit storm, but Kimbo Slice. The guy is nowhere close to being top level, but he's beating boxer that are batting .500. Sure they are hand picked for him, but they have still spent many years boxing.
I'm trying to say is that the elite level of fighting that people see on TV is NOT the baseline to judge from. Put somebody with a borderline wining record vs Diaz and it would be an interesting fight.
 
I don't really care whether or not you call him a boxer, but damn do I miss watching him punch people.
 
Its what he's NOT doing, which is boxing. Most MMA fighters train with boxers...if a Boxer trained at an MMA Gym, would you call him an MMA fighter? I have a few MMA fighters, a couple of them even want to take boxing matches to test what they learn from me...but they are still not boxers and their skill-set will end up much better than Diaz's. The Diaz's punching is rudimentary at best, no one is debating that. They have no real acumen for consistent defense. What exactly do they do that causes people to WANT to call them boxers so bad? That's the real mystery. Punching and winning? Sure, but Evan Tanner did that, too. So do a lot of MMA guys. None of them are "boxers"...or good at Boxing.

Just because his punching is basic does not mean it's not boxing or his punches are not derived from boxing. he's just not as good as a solid pro boxer. His lack of consistent defense also doesn't mean he's not boxing (or trying to box). Poor defense is poor defense. He could be practicing ju jitsu, judo, karate or whatever martial arts and if his defense is bad then its bad but it won't mean he's not practicing that form of martial arts. maybe he has no knack for defense or simply chooses to ignore it for his style of fighting.

Diaz's punching is boxing IMO. It may not be as refined or good enough for the boxing affecionados but it works in the MMA environment (and worked at least once in a pro boxing match). And since he's boxed professionally, he at least has the rights to claim he is a boxer and no one can dispute this. Whether he does it well based on our current modern boxing standard is another issue.

to answer your question, if a boxer trained in an MMA gym and he's learning some form of kicking and ground game then yes, to me he's an MMA fighter (or aspiring to be one). He's learning a skillset to be an MMA fighter regardless of whether he's doing it well or not...
 
Nick Diaz has fought a boxing match, thus he is, or was a boxer.
There's a fair bit of elitism going on here. Just because Diaz isn't technical or pretty to watch, doesn't mean he can't box at all. Put him in with a national level journey man, he'd stand a decent chance and put on a good show. Put him in a good level international level fight and he'd get beat up.
Does that mean the journeyman that lost to Diaz can't box? No does it fuck.

This will probably start a shit storm, but Kimbo Slice. The guy is nowhere close to being top level, but he's beating boxer that are batting .500. Sure they are hand picked for him, but they have still spent many years boxing.
I'm trying to say is that the elite level of fighting that people see on TV is NOT the baseline to judge from. Put somebody with a borderline wining record vs Diaz and it would be an interesting fight.

good point...high or low level, they still have competed in that arena or trained exclusively in that arena..

my point is that people use elements of a art..that does not make them a representative of that art...

you can be using mt and not be a mt guy, shooting dble/sngles and not be a wrestler, throw jabs and move your head and not be a boxer...

but just cause a guy has limitations in a style or art doesn't mean they don't rep it; just means they are not very good at said art, an sometimes the guys who aren't good at a certain art can be very good at mma (marcus davis a good boxing example or guys who wrestled in highschool, not high level wrestlers but perform as well or better in mma).
 
Lol it's funny how this thread always comes up. I remember seeing these threads during my early stages of my boxing training thinking "wow that's awesome how he outboxes everyone" now I look at it thinking how a boxer would light him up. That's the difference between the two sports, but I'm surprised Nick Diaz hasn't encountered any boxers converted into MMA fighters who want to play that game with him and really give him a boxing match.
 
Diaz had no jab. Poking a guy with the lead hand does not constitute a jab. That's just you poking the other guy.

You mean like a probing jab. The one Diaz uses to set up bigger punches and body work, to blind his opponent, to gauge his distance, etc?
 
You mean like a probing jab. The one Diaz uses to set up bigger punches and body work, to blind his opponent, to gauge his distance, etc?

zing!
 
Diaz had no jab. Poking a guy with the lead hand does not constitute a jab. That's just you poking the other guy.

Second: explain to me the loss to Mr Condit. That was a fully stand up battle. Condit isnt undersized, he does not lack gas tank, he does not have a weak chin, and most of all he doesnt dance to the tune that Diaz dance. And so instead of adjusting Mr Diaz decide to trash talk instead of fighting. All of Diaz's win previously before Condit were over glorified because all of it was exciting stand up battle and he was pulverizing the opponent. But if it wasnt for his chin he'd get knock out with the shits he blocked with his face. And even then the quality of opponent at that time is rather suspect. Gomi is good, Daley is ok (even in this win he almost get KO), but what about the rest? An over the hill BJ Penn? A similarly over the hill Frank Shamrock? Fucking Scott Smith? The undersized and overrated Zaromskis? The 19-16 Cyborg who got fast tracked into a title shot? Quality strikers?

Like i have said, the reasons he won his fights pre Condit is favorable match up vs people who willing to trade with him. I cannot stress those two parts enough. He brawl with those people and use his face to out toughness and his cardio out volume them. And that's literally it. He have no plan A, no plan B at all outside of "let's just trash talk to goad the other guy into trading with me".

I for one wonder why he got such a cult of personality though. The forum went rabid when he lost to Condit. Maybe they wasnt expecting someone to not brawl with him and win.

they didnt just stand and bang thats why you are wrong, diaz uses straight punches (including the jab :O) to back people up, then he rattles off body punches. Zaromskis was trying to keep range for kicks, K.J. Noons tried to box him with his jab and counters, BJ penn was keeping away and shooting in for takedowns. BJ who was favoured by exactly half of this forum to beat Diaz.

Diaz tracked them all down and beat them up, so he gets out struck by one guy and he is suddenly nobody? Condit is a very good fighter and used his kicks and running shoes to just about outpoint Diaz.

I think the only top striker to just go in and brawl was Paul Daley... and he nearly won.

also, i dont want none of "If he didnt have a good chin" rubbish, fighters naterualy mold there fighting style around there own attributes. Its why Chuck was dominate for so long and could not win without the chin he once had... it does not make the fighter and less of a fighter
 
Its what he's NOT doing, which is boxing. Most MMA fighters train with boxers...if a Boxer trained at an MMA Gym, would you call him an MMA fighter? I have a few MMA fighters, a couple of them even want to take boxing matches to test what they learn from me...but they are still not boxers and their skill-set will end up much better than Diaz's. The Diaz's punching is rudimentary at best, no one is debating that. They have no real acumen for consistent defense. What exactly do they do that causes people to WANT to call them boxers so bad? That's the real mystery. Punching and winning? Sure, but Evan Tanner did that, too. So do a lot of MMA guys. None of them are "boxers"...or good at Boxing.

So are you saying that boxers who had bad records or terrible habits aren't boxers either? Diaz won a professional boxing match against some nobody, was that guy not a boxer?
 
The following video shows Diaz sparring at a very controlled pace with the late undefeated pro Omar Henry http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=460508&cat=boxer

[YT]hP726Hsrdrc[/YT]

What I am trying to accomplish here is to highlight Nick Diaz's understanding and application of boxing concepts. Diaz has some deficiencies, but he is certainly a boxer. It goes without saying, but you don't have to "be one thing." Diaz is also a wrestler, jiu jitsu player, and a judoka, isn't he? As much as my blue belt BJJ and Judo friends are, I would say, whether they compete or not. Diaz has had pro boxing experience, as mentioned. Diaz is a boxer. He doesn't have "bad boxing." Diaz has understanding of some very advanced concepts in boxing like probes, set-up punches, varying his combination speed/rhythm/power, drawing punches, and more. He is still rough around the edges, but he is a 1-fight pro. He's still learning, like all of you boxers shitting on his boxing. Diaz has some holes (we'll talk head movement later), but he can be seen in this video boxing in an educated way.

A play-by-play for my own film study benefit, and to highlight some of the great boxing we see from Diaz here:

- Diaz shows understanding of range with small backwards steps as Henry advances
- Diaz parries well. Diaz pulls, throws a combination, and exits off the ropes at an angle.
- Diaz catches Henry with a 1-2, then side-steps off the tracks (even slipping!)
- Diaz throws a body jab.
- Diaz throws a 1-2, rocks back into a high posture.
- Diaz covers well and counters.
- Diaz maintains good eyes throughout, very few lapses here.
- At 0:28 Diaz uses a very subtle hand feint to threaten a jab before leading with his cross. This was set up off of the repeated 1-2s Diaz was entering with. Diaz dries for the follow-up 3 but Henry wisely smothers him. Diaz then shows some inside savvy: he takes the inside slip position, drops his level, goes shoulder-to-shoulder with good eyes and hand positioning, then backs out in a defensively-responsible way. His position is strong with good posture, threatening many punches and covering well.
- Diaz has maneuvered Henry towards the corner. Henry understands where he is and sticks out his jab to allow him space to move, and Diaz parries well. Diaz covers up, then throws a 1-2-1, before moving laterally in pursuit of Henry down the ropes. Diaz moves him into the other corner behind his probing jab, showing good control and utility from the lead hand. Diaz continues to move Henry down the ropes behind small hand-feint jabs. Henry moves away and Diaz keeps his back to the centre of the ring, moves to his right, and has now re-positioned Henry towards the corner.
- Diaz throws a nice lead cross, fade-away hook around 0:40-0:42. The small head-slot change got him out safely - a trace of head movement! Diaz goes to the well again for that 2-3, evades Henry's follow-ups, and shows some good understanding of his defensive tools/positioning by shrugging a shoulder to catch a jab.

I am less than a minute in, and we can see plenty of evidence of Diaz's boxing understanding and application. Elsewhere in the video, I see good body punching arrived at through intelligent set-ups. Educated footwork is all over the video, even if it's not at a PHD level. Diaz's ring control has been noted, but there are many other examples.

Another interesting exchange that highlights Diaz's understanding of control (ala Barry Robinson), defensive radar, and footwork. At 1:17, Diaz has superior positioning. He throws a 1-2, and Henry sits onto his back hip to slip Diaz's power shot. Diaz leaves his cross extended for control, and steps his left foot forward into orthodox to smother Henry's counter. At the same time, Diaz's right hand goes to Henry's left hand/shoulder to function as a "trap," a controlling hand to occupying that side. Diaz breaks from his smother intelligently, throwing a short right hook off of his control of Henry's left arm, and a left hook after it.

Some defensive evidence that shows more understanding: At 1:23, Diaz eats a jab, immediately brings his left shoulders across his mid-line to defend the potential follow-up right hand. Diaz has his right hand adjusted to a parry position, which helps deflect Henry's cross, and blocks the straight jab lane. Diaz changes head slots shortly after to give a different look and defensive variable (as he was vulnerable to the left hook here). Though they are going light, Diaz still reacted well to the jab, shutting down follow-up options in an intelligent way.

Diaz definitely has his faults. Head movement is his biggest problem. Beyond keeping him safer, it would really add to his game as another layer of feints without him having to think about it. Many times in this video Diaz would have been better off moving his head. He wouldn't have to trim his volume-punching game down, either. Similarly, a small and loose rhythm in his hips and shoulders would serve him well to disguise punches, draw them from his opponent to set up big counters, and offer different looks in general.

Anyways, I realize this is a pretty long-winded and disjointed rant. I hope it has been interesting to some. Diaz's lack of mastery does not preclude him from being a boxer. He has some holes, but he is a pro boxer who trains in boxing, spars boxers, and applies boxing concepts in his fights.
 
Last edited:
The following video shows Diaz sparring at a very controlled pace with the late undefeated pro Omar Henry http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=460508&cat=boxer

[YT]hP726Hsrdrc[/YT]

What I am trying to accomplish here is to highlight Nick Diaz's understanding and application of boxing concepts. Diaz has some deficiencies, but he is certainly a boxer. It goes without saying, but you don't have to "be one thing." Diaz is also a wrestler, jiu jitsu player, and a judoka, isn't he? As much as my blue belt BJJ and Judo friends are, I would say, whether they compete or not. Diaz has had pro boxing experience, as mentioned. Diaz is a boxer. He doesn't have "bad boxing." Diaz has understanding of some very advanced concepts in boxing like probes, set-up punches, varying his combination speed/rhythm/power, drawing punches, and more. He is still rough around the edges, but he is a 1-fight pro. He's still learning, like all of you boxers shitting on his boxing. Diaz has some holes (we'll talk head movement later), but he can be seen in this video boxing in an educated way.

A play-by-play for my own film study benefit, and to highlight some of the great boxing we see from Diaz here:

- Diaz shows understanding of range with small backwards steps as Henry advances
- Diaz parries well. Diaz pulls, throws a combination, and exits off the ropes at an angle.
- Diaz catches Henry with a 1-2, then side-steps off the tracks (even slipping!)
- Diaz throws a body jab.
- Diaz throws a 1-2, rocks back into a high posture.
- Diaz covers well and counters.
- Diaz maintains good eyes throughout, very few lapses here.
- At 0:28 Diaz uses a very subtle hand feint to threaten a jab before leading with his cross. This was set up off of the repeated 1-2s Diaz was entering with. Diaz dries for the follow-up 3 but Henry wisely smothers him. Diaz then shows some inside savvy: he takes the inside slip position, drops his level, goes shoulder-to-shoulder with good eyes and hand positioning, then backs out in a defensively-responsible way. His position is strong with good posture, threatening many punches and covering well.
- Diaz has maneuvered Henry towards the corner. Henry understands where he is and sticks out his jab to allow him space to move, and Diaz parries well. Diaz covers up, then throws a 1-2-1, before moving laterally in pursuit of Henry down the ropes. Diaz moves him into the other corner behind his probing jab, showing good control and utility from the lead hand. Diaz continues to move Henry down the ropes behind small hand-feint jabs. Henry moves away and Diaz keeps his back to the centre of the ring, moves to his right, and has now re-positioned Henry towards the corner.
- Diaz throws a nice lead cross, fade-away hook around 0:40-0:42. The small head-slot change got him out safely - a trace of head movement! Diaz goes to the well again for that 2-3, evades Henry's follow-ups, and shows some good understanding of his defensive tools/positioning by shrugging a shoulder to catch a jab.

I am less than a minute in, and we can see plenty of evidence of Diaz's boxing understanding and application. Elsewhere in the video, I see good body punching arrived at through intelligent set-ups. Educated footwork is all over the video, even if it's not at a PHD level. Diaz's ring control has been noted, but there are many other examples.

Another interesting exchange that highlights Diaz's understanding of control (ala Barry Robinson), defensive radar, and footwork. At 1:17, Diaz has superior positioning. He throws a 1-2, and Henry sits onto his back hip to slip Diaz's power shot. Diaz leaves his cross extended for control, and steps his left foot forward into orthodox to smother Henry's counter. At the same time, Diaz's right hand goes to Henry's left hand/shoulder to function as a "trap," a controlling hand to occupying that side. Diaz breaks from his smother intelligently, throwing a short right hook off of his control of Henry's left arm, and a left hook after it.

Some defensive evidence that shows more understanding: At 1:23, Diaz eats a jab, immediately brings his left shoulders across his mid-line to defend the potential follow-up right hand. Diaz has his right hand adjusted to a parry position, which helps deflect Henry's cross, and blocks the straight jab lane. Diaz changes head slots shortly after to give a different look and defensive variable (as he was vulnerable to the left hook here). Though they are going light, Diaz still reacted well to the jab, shutting down follow-up options in an intelligent way.

Diaz definitely has his faults. Head movement is his biggest problem. Beyond keeping him safer, it would really add to his game as another layer of feints without him having to think about it. Many times in this video Diaz would have been better off moving his head. He wouldn't have to trim his volume-punching game down, either. Similarly, a small and loose rhythm in his hips and shoulders would serve him well to disguise punches, draw them from his opponent to set up big counters, and offer different looks in general.

Anyways, I realize this is a pretty long-winded and disjointed rant. I hope it has been interesting to some. Diaz's lack of mastery does not preclude him from being a boxer. He has some holes, but he is a pro boxer who trains in boxing, spars boxers, and applies boxing concepts in his fights.

2516067-5477154538-slow-.gif
 
It may not constitute as "boxing" but the fact is that Diaz brings some elements of the sweet science that are largely lacking in MMA such as combination punching, in-fighting, and bodywork. Due to his skill-set he poses a threat for technically superior boxers who are more inclined to stay in the pocket and counter ala Penn or the modern incarnation of Lawler. Unfortunately he completely negates other aspects of boxing which means that any striker who consistently turns him will have success to some degree. Still though there are things to learn from watching Nick fight, he's undoubtedly a tough fucker with some method behind his madness.
 
He's got a real busy style about him, always enjoy watching the Diaz bros fights.
 
Nice vid. I could watch Diaz fight every day and never get bored.
As far as whether or not he's a "boxer", all I know is he's used his hands to beat the shit out of most people that tried to stand with him. If that's not good boxing, fine, but it sure is a close relative.
 
Also, shortening his punches means there isn't a great distance to travel thus making them quicker.

Yep. Something his opponents don't seemed to have worked out. With those little short pitter patter shots Diaz's hands aren't in any position to defend, especially his body. A guy coming low with body shots would throw a serious spanner in Diaz's gameplan.

It's funny to watch someone as awkward as Nick Diaz fight and beat guys using just simple combinations and some basic boxing fundamentals. Just the fact that he looks for openings and isn't loading up on all his shots puts him far ahead of most MMA fighters. But lets not pretend that in a boxing match against a semi decent pro he'd get eaten alive.

Robbie Lawler is looking really good with his boxing these days and for the most part I believe because he's not just throwing blind bombs anymore but looking and calculating his openings. Much more intelligent, efficient and effective.
 
IMO, the combination of reach + chin + balls + volume already makes Diaz dangerous opponent.

Not easy to fight guys like that even if they have flaws in their technique ...
 
I don't really care whether or not you call him a boxer, but damn do I miss watching him punch people.

+1 for this.

I think there is some real confusion, but I also think some of this is semantics on what you call him. I think knowledgeable fans know that he is not going to be very competitive with good boxers in a boxing match. They understand he is good with his hands in a MMA context. He has had lots of success doing so.

I think people call him a "boxer" in MMA because he has a punching heavy style. That's all it is. We know everything (stance, footwork, etc.) in MMA is different than a straight boxing match or Thai boxing match because it has to be. And of course MMA fighters are not going to be as technical as those guys, especially in a MMA match. They can definitely do better in many regards, but that's a topic for another thread.

I'm not saying Diaz's style will be impressive or even pretty to boxing fans, but it sure as hell is very effective for him in MMA and he definitely has a crowd pleasing style of fighting.

Edit: None of this is directed specifically at you a guy, I kind of just ranted and agreed with your point about who cares what we call him.
 
I chalk Nick's successful striking in MMA up to a few things.

- Ability to take a shot. The guy may legitimately have the best chin/toughness in the entire sport.

- Cardio. The guy doesn't get tired, even when his opponent does.

- Focus on body work. Not only does he not get tired, he forcefully makes his opponent tire faster than normal by working their body.

- His opponents with "better" striking tend to be power strikers who play into his style perfectly. They blow their wad trying to crack his chin, fail, then get broken down by his high work rate.

I'd really like to see him fight the current crop of top WW's. The two fights I want to see him in most are vs Tarec Saffiedine and Hector Lombard.
 
I misspelled. I meant MMA fighters, not fights.

I'll probably just be stating the obvious ones but: Junior Dos Santos, Anderson Silva, Pat Curran's pretty good, I PERSONALLY think Mark Hunt has got better boxing than he gets credit for.

I think it depends on what aspects of boxing you're looking for, I think that JDS and Anderson Silva LOOK the most like boxers when they fight (at least until Anderson starts throwing taekwondo kicks and the muay thai plum). GSP's jab is the stuff of legends. It really does depend on what aspects you're looking for.

Different people are going to be good at different things, GSP can jab your face off 8 ways from sunday, whereas Anderson Silva has that beautiful counter punching, but even then a lot of what you do as an MMA fighter just simply wouldn't fly in the boxing ring.

Even the threat of another attack can set you up to do other things that you wouldn't ordinarily be able to do. This is not a boxing example but Lesnar vs Overeem was a great example of how having techniques under your belt to neutralise your opponent can let you fight a fight that most people could not.

In the same way that Lesnar couldn't shoot for a takedown out of the risk of getting kneed in the face as he shot in (and this allowed Overeem to kickbox with Lesnar), the threat of other attacks such as kicks can help to land techniques such as superman punches which are no where near as common in boxing.

Some people would say its apples and oranges, and they're wrong, it's not, there are very clear crossovers and GENERALLY what works in one should work in another, but there are big differences that not everyone will take into consideration, especially between MMA and boxing.

So yeah, there's my sort-of essay in response. :p

My final nerdy verdict:
If you want some examples of good boxing technique demonstrated in the cage I'd recommend, Anderson Silva, JDS, GSP, Pat Curran, Eddie Alvarez and Alexander Gustaffson
If you want examples of some sloppier boxing, but I personally think that it's effective I'd recommend, Fedor Emelianenko, Mark Hunt and I suppose you could the Diaz brothers in there.

I'm no expert though.
 
Just to put this in perspective:
The random house dictionary defines boxing as "
the act, technique, or profession of fighting with the fists, with or without boxing gloves" at least by that definition, the video is boxing.

One should make a distinction between the specific (the art of fist fighting practiced in the sport of boxing) and the generic (the art of fighting with your fists).
 
Back
Top