Neil Melanson purple belt submits Bill Cooper

[brendan raedy]

I'm a big Glover fan, so admittedly this is biased, but he took the event on less than 1 week's notice, and even Eddie was like "are you sure that he can make 145 in time?"

The dude might well have been tired from the weight cut. There was a lot of money on the line, so I don't think that they weren't going for it. At ADCC and Worlds people have 2 days between their 4-5 matches. All of the finalists at this tournament had 3 matches by the finals, all within a couple hours, and they finished all of them to get there. So Geo, Glover, Tonon, and Richie had all submitted 3 people already by the time these finals even happened. Tonon and Glover both had some flying heel hooks, flying guillotines, and flying triangles between them. I dunno, I thought most of the matches were cool.

Bill Cooper took the event on 1 or 2 day's notice too.

Glover and Cooper were offered a spot in the tournament on less than a weeks notice, or accepted less than a week out?

If they were invited less than a week out, did somebody else they had in mind drop out?

 

[Drew Foster]

Glover and Cooper were offered a spot in the tournament on less than a weeks notice, or accepted less than a week out?

If they were invited less than a week out, did somebody else they had in mind drop out?

Offered and accepted on short notice. Pretty sure they both said yes as soon as they were offered, and didn't even think about it.

Jason Manly got hurt and had to back out the day of or the day before the tournament in the 170 lbs division, so Bill Cooper stepped in.

As far as Glover, I believe there was a spot open, and Scotty Nelson from OTM shot Eddie the idea of getting Glover in there. If you see the original brackets they posted, Glover wasn't on them, and even on the final brackets, Cooper wasn't on them.

That's a big reason why I like those dudes, because they'll just go do any match or tournament at the drop of a dime. They don't care if they didn't have a ton of time to train and prep or not. If something cool comes up on a whim, they'll just do it.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I believe the overtime system is the best thing anyone couldve ever came out with, fuck advantages! hell fuck points. Who cars about damn points.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

could anyone tell me who won? glover or geo?

 

[Drew Foster]

could anyone tell me who won? glover or geo?

geo won. They took the combined times of who escaped the fastest, since no one could submit the other, and Geo's times for escaping were faster than Glover's. I think...someone said they took the combined times of their previous 3 submissions in their first 3 matches. Geo won the match though.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

geo won. They took the combined times of who escaped the fastest, since no one could submit the other, and Geo's times for escaping were faster than Glover's. I think...someone said they took the combined times of their previous 3 submissions in their first 3 matches. Geo won the match though.

Thanks!

 

[trustdoesntrust]

I'll take guys "diving" for leglocks any day over IBJJF. Leglocks are awesome!

I'm not dissing leglocks, it's the way that the pressure to finish a sub in these sub-only events causes a lot of guys to abandon form and just dive for leglocks all the time (or for other low-percentage submissions). Again, I'm not a huge fan of IBJJF either, but at the same time a lot of people fail to appreciate the types of stalemates that can happen when two of the highest level competitors face each other and have just a few minutes to work. Notice, for instance, that there's a ton of subs in the first few rounds of these tournaments, subs by the same guys who get accused of stalling and shameless point-fighting in later matches.

 

[tap21]

I'm not dissing leglocks, it's the way that the pressure to finish a sub in these sub-only events causes a lot of guys to abandon form and just dive for leglocks all the time (or for other low-percentage submissions). Again, I'm not a huge fan of IBJJF either, but at the same time a lot of people fail to appreciate the types of stalemates that can happen when two of the highest level competitors face each other and have just a few minutes to work. Notice, for instance, that there's a ton of subs in the first few rounds of these tournaments, subs by the same guys who get accused of stalling and shameless point-fighting in later matches.

Okay, I get what you are driving at. But, can you really say that someone is "abandon[ing] form" when they disengage from a stalemate and go for the sub.

I would say that is better form.

 

[brendan raedy]

Offered and accepted on short notice. Pretty sure they both said yes as soon as they were offered, and didn't even think about it.

Jason Manly got hurt and had to back out the day of or the day before the tournament in the 170 lbs division, so Bill Cooper stepped in.

As far as Glover, I believe there was a spot open, and Scotty Nelson from OTM shot Eddie the idea of getting Glover in there. If you see the original brackets they posted, Glover wasn't on them, and even on the final brackets, Cooper wasn't on them.

That's a big reason why I like those dudes, because they'll just go do any match or tournament at the drop of a dime. They don't care if they didn't have a ton of time to train and prep or not. If something cool comes up on a whim, they'll just do it.

That is really cool of both of them, especially Cooper who it sounds like hopped in on even less notice than Glover. Wonder how much the short time for the weight cut detracted from their performance? If it was an issue, would have to liked to see how they would have done with time for a regular cut.

I really like the OT rules. Obviously you have to work on subs, but this also forces you to work on escapes, which I know a lot of upper belts can get away from. Kind of reminds me of the OT rules for wrestling.

Look forward to seeing EBI2. Hopefully there will be a way for us East Coasters to catch the next one?

 

[tap21]

I believe the overtime system is the best thing anyone couldve ever came out with, fuck advantages! hell fuck points. Who cars about damn points.

I really like the OT rules. Obviously you have to work on subs, but this also forces you to work on escapes, which I know a lot of upper belts can get away from. Kind of reminds me of the OT rules for wrestling.

Look forward to seeing EBI2. Hopefully there will be a way for us East Coasters to catch the next one?

I 100% agree. The OT rules provide some finality and take it out of the refs hands.

 

[WARRIOR POET]

geo won. They took the combined times of who escaped the fastest, since no one could submit the other, and Geo's times for escaping were faster than Glover's. I think...someone said they took the combined times of their previous 3 submissions in their first 3 matches. Geo won the match though.

lol,

yes, 10th pjj rules the world now. well, not where ADCC is being held at but like anywhere else

 

[trustdoesntrust]

Okay, I get what you are driving at. But, can you really say that someone is "abandon[ing] form" when they disengage from a stalemate and go for the sub.

I would say that is better form.

If two guys are just diving for leglocks all the time, or flying triangles, or trying to hit japanese neckties off quick scrambles, then it's not great form. Without the pressure to finish a sub before the time limit, you're going to spend more time setting up a higher percentage sub, which usually means establishing your guard and/or passing the other guy's guard. Just go back to Metamoris and the Bravo/Royler match. It took Eddie almost ten minutes to set up his lockdown shenanigans. How would it have looked if Eddie had just "disengaged from the stalemate" after twenty seconds and rolled around for some low-percentage heel hook? Then Royler could have dove for a d'arce and so on and so on.

 

[Drew Foster]

If two guys are just diving for leglocks all the time, or flying triangles, or trying to hit japanese neckties off quick scrambles, then it's not great form. Without the pressure to finish a sub before the time limit, you're going to spend more time setting up a higher percentage sub, which usually means establishing your guard and/or passing the other guy's guard. Just go back to Metamoris and the Bravo/Royler match. It took Eddie almost ten minutes to set up his lockdown shenanigans. How would it have looked if Eddie had just "disengaged from the stalemate" after twenty seconds and rolled around for some low-percentage heel hook? Then Royler could have dove for a d'arce and so on and so on.

I agree to an extent, but most nogi submissions come from scrambles. It's pretty rare in any nogi format to see clean guard passes. You do see them, but they aren't as common. I would also argue that heel hooks are actually very high percentage, and I think there were more heel hooks at ADCC than any other finish. I mean I guess "diving on" chokes might be viewed as not great form, but shit man, these guys are fast. It's much harder to slowly cinch things into place. In regards to the diving on chokes, Ryan Hall was explaining on his chokes set that often that's just to get control of the head, and then you clean it up later.

Same thing with jumping onto a leg. A lot of times it's just trying to entagle the legs, and then you can polish it up and get the finish. Good players don't try to jump from A to C, they work their way up. So, diving on a leg might just be going from A to B, and then if someone slips out or defends, you just aren't seeing the part where they're going to C.

Marcelo Garcia will snap and dive onto guillotines really fast, but I never get the impression that it's sloppy form. I'm just playing devil's advocate.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

I agree to an extent, but most nogi submissions come from scrambles. It's pretty rare in any nogi format to see clean guard passes. You do see them, but they aren't as common. I would also argue that heel hooks are actually very high percentage, and I think there were more heel hooks at ADCC than any other finish. I mean I guess "diving on" chokes might be viewed as not great form, but shit man, these guys are fast. It's much harder to slowly cinch things into place. In regards to the diving on chokes, Ryan Hall was explaining on his chokes set that often that's just to get control of the head, and then you clean it up later.

Same thing with jumping onto a leg. A lot of times it's just trying to entagle the legs, and then you can polish it up and get the finish. Good players don't try to jump from A to C, they work their way up. So, diving on a leg might just be going from A to B, and then if someone slips out or defends, you just aren't seeing the part where they're going to C.

Marcelo Garcia will snap and dive onto guillotines really fast, but I never get the impression that it's sloppy form. I'm just playing devil's advocate.

fast is not the same as bad form. what i'm talking about may more accurately be described as "rushed," which is how a lot of sub-only matches appear to me, including ones in which I've been involved. as we see even in the ibjjf, it's not that hard to dive for a leglock from almost any position. however, when i watch real leglockers, such as dean lister or reilley bodycomb (or gary tonon himself), i see them work to set up and attack from high-percentage leglock positions, and so when they actually go for the sub it tends to be pretty deep. watching jeff glover and geo martinez roll around on their backs in double open guard is not the same thing, and to me smells of desperation caused by the pressure of the event rules.

i guess a good way to summarize my point would be that sub-only comps are good in that they incentivize aggressive grappling (which is of course what we often complain most about the ibjjf), but too often they seem to go too far in that direction.