NBA NBA Thread: Gamble Gate


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MusterX said:
I'm aware the comparison between the two is not accurate. I'm saying that failure to win, or failure to win enough, will hold a player back in overall standing amongst fans. Jokic is INCREDIBLY talented, but to break into the top 10 requires rings, multiple rings. Even then, rings is not enough, Robert Horry has 7 of them but nobody thinks he's a top 10 all time guy. It requires amazing talent, and rings. Jokic has amazing talent, but 1 ring won't get him there. He has to win more championships. Like I said, I wouldn't even rank Jokic above multiple other Centers simply because they have 4, 5, and even 6 rings.
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Plumber era players like tragic ohnson(no j), turd and rustle need to be removed from the top 10 for guys like Fat Serb. It should be noted that he plays in the most skilled era of all time and carried cans like MPJ to a ring. I mean one guy literally played with aids and another ended his career mowing the lawn lmao. Bronny would average 40/10/10 pre 90s.
 
Corona said:
Plumber era players like tragic ohnson(no j), turd and rustle need to be removed from the top 10 for guys like Fat Serb. It should be noted that he plays in the most skilled era of all time and carried cans like MPJ to a ring. I mean one guy literally played with aids and another ended his career mowing the lawn lmao. Bronny would average 40/10/10 pre 90s.
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Corona said:
Also lmao at gAyD injured again
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th
 
MusterX said:
I'm aware the comparison between the two is not accurate. I'm saying that failure to win, or failure to win enough, will hold a player back in overall standing amongst fans. Jokic is INCREDIBLY talented, but to break into the top 10 requires rings, multiple rings. Even then, rings is not enough, Robert Horry has 7 of them but nobody thinks he's a top 10 all time guy. It requires amazing talent, and rings. Jokic has amazing talent, but 1 ring won't get him there. He has to win more championships. Like I said, I wouldn't even rank Jokic above multiple other Centers simply because they have 4, 5, and even 6 rings.
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I think every situation is pretty unique. It's a team sport and it's also heavily influenced by officiating. On one side of the spectrum you get guys like Karl Malone, Charles Barkley and the such who never won a ring. To your point, guys like Horry may have a bunch, but he was never regarded as the bus driver on any team, and you can have 15 rings I wouldn't care if you don't have enough of a bus driver role.

It's a matter of opinion. I don't emphasize ring culture as much, I actually have a bias that ring culture causes players to be overrated/underrated - and also gives tailwinds to popular players on popular franchises like Boston and LA. Lot of guys in the past with many rings even as the proverbial bus drivers were basically going through the exact same routine against he exact same cast of characters since there was a lack of free agency, players shifting teams, and the "windowed" approach of the modern game. And also feel the game and talent depth just wasn't evolved enough. So the "degree of difficulty" of getting multiple rings really wasn't comparable to today's game anyways. And team hopping like how Durant got his two chips, or if SGA gets another one this year, it's not going to cause folks to think he's the best player in the world.

Guys like Shaq and Kareem themselves only one won titles with other franchises before just team hopping to the Lakers to play alongside other elite all-time greats to get some more rings. It's not like they turned into magically better players, they just got into environments easier to win more rings since that's how the NBA operates.
 
Unknown Pleasures said:
I think every situation is pretty unique. It's a team sport and it's also heavily influenced by officiating. On one side of the spectrum you get guys like Karl Malone, Charles Barkley and the such who never won a ring. To your point, guys like Horry may have a bunch, but he was never regarded as the bus driver on any team, and you can have 15 rings I wouldn't care if you don't have enough of a bus driver role.

It's a matter of opinion. I don't emphasize ring culture as much, I actually have a bias that ring culture causes players to be overrated/underrated - and also gives tailwinds to popular players on popular franchises like Boston and LA. Lot of guys in the past with many rings even as the proverbial bus drivers were basically going through the exact same routine against he exact same cast of characters since there was a lack of free agency, players shifting teams, and the "windowed" approach of the modern game. And also feel the game and talent depth just wasn't evolved enough. So the "degree of difficulty" of getting multiple rings really wasn't comparable to today's game anyways. And team hopping like how Durant got his two chips, or if SGA gets another one this year, it's not going to cause folks to think he's the best player in the world.

Guys like Shaq and Kareem themselves only one won titles with other franchises before just team hopping to the Lakers to play alongside other elite all-time greats to get some more rings. It's not like they turned into magically better players, they just got into environments easier to win more rings since that's how the NBA operates.
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I'm not going to try to counter your argument because frankly, I tend to agree but let me say this about Kareem specifically. Kareem was one of, if not the best high school player of all time, winning state championships on undefeated teams. He IS the best college player of all time, winning 3 NCAA Championships in 3 years. In fact he was so dominant, the league BANNED dunking for a period of years because of Kareem. He then followed that up with 6 NBA Championships, a virtually unblockable shot he pioneered himself, and was the all time leading scorer for 30 years, while also winning 6 MVPS. Kareem has one of the most perfect, Cinderella careers from high School to retirement that exists in sports. Kareem didn't magically get better by joining the Lakers, that is correct, he was already magical since he was 14 years old. He won championships, multiple championships, at every level from the start to the finish including gifting the Bucks their first ring.
 
Karl Malone is an objectively better player than Steph Curry or Joker right now. More consistent, longer reign of dominance, less talent to work with. John Stockton has like 80% of his assists just throwing it to Malone lmao

Even though Malone is better all time, both of them would dominate in that era. Joker probably surpasses Malone with a couple more years of this production.
 
I love how Wemby pretends that he's not emotionally invested in Chet during interviews and then does all of this malicious shit when they're facing off.



 
Croaker said:
Regardless of him being a horrible human being he was a great basketball player lol
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In defense of the plumber era, Karl Malone was built like a brick shithouse and posted the most 2,000 point seasons in history, 12 times.
 
MusterX said:
I'm not going to try to counter your argument because frankly, I tend to agree but let me say this about Kareem specifically. Kareem was one of, if not the best high school player of all time, winning state championships on undefeated teams. He IS the best college player of all time, winning 3 NCAA Championships in 3 years. In fact he was so dominant, the league BANNED dunking for a period of years because of Kareem. He then followed that up with 6 NBA Championships, a virtually unblockable shot he pioneered himself, and was the all time leading scorer for 30 years, while also winning 6 MVPS. Kareem has one of the most perfect, Cinderella careers from high School to retirement that exists in sports. Kareem didn't magically get better by joining the Lakers, that is correct, he was already magical since he was 14 years old. He won championships, multiple championships, at every level from the start to the finish including gifting the Bucks their first ring.
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Kareem is great but he also lucked out by having the GOAT point guard fall to the Lakers when he was still 32 years old and averaging about 25 and 12. .

Prior to Magic, Kareem had only won 1 championship in 9 years in the league.
 
Possum Jenkins said:
Kareem is great but he also lucked out by having the GOAT point guard fall to the Lakers when he was still 32 years old and averaging about 25 and 12. .

Prior to Magic, Kareem had only won 1 championship in 9 years in the league.
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He played for a shit Bucks team and got them their first ring. Was he also lucky when he won 3 consecutive NCAA Championships? Or when he won State Championships in high school before that? Kareem won Championships at every level, and with every team.
 
Kareem was an obvious stud. His statistical dominance is his prime is very similar to Jokic. The game was very different though as the three point shot didn't really exist for much of Kareem's time, and the depth of talent was way weaker. There were no foreign players in the NBA at the time and it wasn't anything that resembled a global game. Now it's like 45% of centers in the league are foreign (it seems that's the position with most foreign players). It's of course very crude analysis, but it's basically saying 1/3 to 1/2 of centers Kareem went up against in his day wouldn't be good enough to be in that position in the global era.

I'm also somewhat critical of the sky hook shot since it's essentially gone extinct in the modern game, partially due to the floor spacing, but I suspect also the players are just bigger and more agile these days. It's kind of like "Big George Foreman" where for his time he was considered some huge monster, but reality is the dude was like 220 pounds and would be dwarfed by later fighters not known as "Big" like Lenox Lewis, Klitsckos etc. Kareem was built much more like Chet Holmgren.

Then the wildcard was the ABA / NBA split during some of Kareem's best years. So not only was the talent less deep globally, it was split across leagues domestically to a decent degree.

Anyhow, I don't really like these discussions because it's so much hair splitting and seems like someone is shitting on great players, but it's hard to do apple-to-apple comparisons going so far back.
 
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