NBA NBA Thread: Gamble Gate

You ever hear anyone say "I grew up idolizing LeBron. I idolized the way he flops all over the court, needs to get bailed out in big moments, often is a no-show in important games, and blames losing on his teammates banging his mom"?

I sure haven't.

 
I've changed my mind on Stephen Curry. His 59th place in 3pt shooting percentage this season has me convinced he's definitely the shooter of all time.
 
Unknown Pleasures said:
Thing is with the amount of money thrown at basketball players and the age at which people begin playing, if it is a viable shot at a high enough efficiency and unblockable, some people WOULD have "mastered it" or at least made it viable for occasional use. I just can't accept that it was just a "trend" thing, or that it wasn't "cool" (especially because IMO it looks cool as fuck, it's not the same as a granny free throw shot or anything).



It may indeed be "unblockable", but I suspect it just isn't a high enough percentage shot, or that double teams are just quicker these days and can force turnovers, or more athletic and sizeable defenders while not being able to block it, are able to affect the vision or at least make it uncomfortable enough that it's not viable as a sufficiency efficient shot to take, especially past a certain distance where the three-pointer reward dwarfs it.

Maybe I'm off base, but I just don't see how other players wouldn't legit work on it if it was a credible option in today's game.
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In the 90s there was a trend of physically dominant, athletic centres like Shaq and David Robinson emerging.

Ive actually heard quotes from players in the past that the skyhook was viewed as an old school move, and they weren’t that interested in mastering it. It wasn’t the cool thing at the time.

In modern basketball, the spacing on the interior is much more open (because of the three point shot) so there’s less necessity for bigs to spend hours mastering the sky hook. The skyhook is designed to shoot over multiple / large defenders, but today, bigs can cut and get off on screens pretty easy. So they don’t need it that much.

The sky hook is a super efficient / effective shot, it’s just not as relevant in the modern game.
 
MusterX said:
I like Jokic as a player, a lot, mainly due to the fact my boy Luka is best friends with him, but he is going to end up like Dirk, 1 ring. The difference is Dirk had one of the hardest runs in history, Jokic beat an 8th seed for his ring. I don't see how the Nuggets win another one with San Antonio, OKC, standing in their way. If he's going to do it then it better be this year.
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60% of rings is luck / team building. It’s a pretty unfair metric when it comes to GOAT rankings.

If KD doesn’t go to the warriors, LeBron probably has 5-6 rings and KD has none.

If Bill Russell didnt have the stacked Celtics team then Wilt probably has 6.

If AI or Tracy mcgrady gets teamed up with Shaq they probably have 3 rings..

Jokic from an analytics persepective is a top 2-3 (maybe even 1) greatest offensive engine of all time (points created / generated). Put him on OKC instead of Shae.. OKC are even better.
 
wildchild88 said:
60% of rings is luck / team building. It’s a pretty unfair metric when it comes to GOAT rankings.

If KD doesn’t go to the warriors, LeBron probably has 5-6 rings and KD has none.

If Bill Russell didnt have the stacked Celtics team then Wilt probably has 6.

If AI or Tracy mcgrady gets teamed up with Shaq they probably have 3 rings..

Jokic from an analytics persepective is a top 2-3 (maybe even 1) greatest offensive engine of all time (points created / generated). Put him on OKC instead of Shae.. OKC are even better.
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I hear you, and understand what you are saying, and I hate to say this, but winning matters. Its sports. Its the most important metric in sports. Tom Brady is considered the GOAT because he won 7 Super Bowls. If you take away his Bowls, he's not the GOAT anymore. Its personnel accolades, yes, but also its winning. It has to be both to be considered among the greatest of all time and its always been that way.
 
LeBron is like 250lbs flying through the air like an eagle, putting up all kinds of highlight dunks..

Hes shot well over 50% since turning 40.. crazy stuff.

It’s just the kings, but lakers seem to be way more focused / aligned. Not rushing their offense and not getting humiliated on defence every play.
 
MusterX said:
I hear you, and understand what you are saying, and I hate to say this, but winning matters. Its sports. Its the most important metric in sports. Tom Brady is considered the GOAT because he won 7 Super Bowls. If you take away his Bowls, he's not the GOAT anymore. Its personnel accolades, yes, but also its winning. It has to be both to be considered among the greatest of all time and its always been that way.
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Brady also has a shitload of other records too though, granted largely based on longevity, but it still counts. But I agree with you his Superbowl wins is what does propel him to a rather consensus #1 because in football QB is the glory position of most importance, and he was to some degree more of a "system quarterback" who at his pinnacle wouldn't be the flashiest or most breathtaking quarterback as compared to maybe somem others in the top 10, but Brady does indeed have tremendous merit outside of titles -- all time regular season yards, completions, touchdowns etc among others.

That said, as soon as you go into any discussion about other position players like GOAT runningbacks, or wide receivers the amount of rings discussion usually becomes largely very secondary and top 10s often include guys at the position or even in the sport like Barry Sanders (0), Jim Brown (1), Double Throat Slasher (0), Walter Payton (1), Adrian Peterson (0), Derrick Henry (0), Eric Dickerson (0), Tomlinson (0), etc though some of themwouldn't qualify in a top 10 outside of running backs. I might be having mental block, but Emmitt Smith is pretty much the only elite top tier RB with multiple titles.

Wide receivers Moss (0), Megatron (0), Marvin Harrison (1), Steve Largent (0), Fitzgerald (0), Terrell Owens (0), though WR GOAT Rice won 3.
 
MusterX said:
Damn, KLAW turning back the clock.

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Kawhi showing a lot of emotion compared to his younger days.

basket-ball.gif
 
wildchild88 said:
60% of rings is luck / team building. It’s a pretty unfair metric when it comes to GOAT rankings.

If KD doesn’t go to the warriors, LeBron probably has 5-6 rings and KD has none.

If Bill Russell didnt have the stacked Celtics team then Wilt probably has 6.

If AI or Tracy mcgrady gets teamed up with Shaq they probably have 3 rings..

Jokic from an analytics persepective is a top 2-3 (maybe even 1) greatest offensive engine of all time (points created / generated). Put him on OKC instead of Shae.. OKC are even better.
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Given his style not being centered on raw athleticism, I think it's possible he keeps a high level of stat stuff efficiency that will possibly make him the all-time highest in most analytics and possibly hit #2 in career value over replacement (don't think he can catch Lebron given Lebron's early career start and amazing longevity, I just picture Jokic wanting to retire earlier), and in raw headline numbers top 5 in plus minus, and could possibly hit top 10-20 in all of points, rebounds and assists which I don't think anyone has ever done, and number 1 in triple-doubles seems inevitable soon.

I think Luka is the only one who has a chance to be competitive in the raw points-rebounds-assists numbers from a career perspective but won't be able to touch the efficiency perspective.

He'll likely go down as the all time greatest "floor raiser" in terms of making any other 4 players on the court more dangerous than any other player has been able to. As i heard one other person astutely say, he plays like he invented the game.

His averages right now are 30-12-11 (leading the league in the last two) on 67% shooting and usage much closer to Dillon Brooks than of the premier point scorers of the league. Honestly, it's gotten so ridiculously normalized that it's boring at this point. The amount of players out there that could ever hope to have a 30-12-11 on 67% from the field on their best day is extremely small, let alone average that. It wouldn't surprise me if the amount of players who have hit that this season for a single game could be counted on one hand.

www.basketball-reference.com

2025-26 NBA MVP Award Tracker | Basketball-Reference.com

NBA MVP Award Tracker
www.basketball-reference.com www.basketball-reference.com
 
Unknown Pleasures said:
Brady also has a shitload of other records too though, granted largely based on longevity, but it still counts. But I agree with you his Superbowl wins is what does propel him to a rather consensus #1 because in football QB is the glory position of most importance, and he was to some degree more of a "system quarterback" who at his pinnacle wouldn't be the flashiest or most breathtaking quarterback as compared to maybe somem others in the top 10, but Brady does indeed have tremendous merit outside of titles -- all time regular season yards, completions, touchdowns etc among others.

That said, as soon as you go into any discussion about other position players like GOAT runningbacks, or wide receivers the amount of rings discussion usually becomes largely very secondary and top 10s often include guys at the position or even in the sport like Barry Sanders (0), Jim Brown (1), Double Throat Slasher (0), Walter Payton (1), Adrian Peterson (0), Derrick Henry (0), Eric Dickerson (0), Tomlinson (0), etc though some of themwouldn't qualify in a top 10 outside of running backs. I might be having mental block, but Emmitt Smith is pretty much the only elite top tier RB with multiple titles.

Wide receivers Moss (0), Megatron (0), Marvin Harrison (1), Steve Largent (0), Fitzgerald (0), Terrell Owens (0), though WR GOAT Rice won 3.
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Yea, football is a little different because there are so many moving parts on a football team, 60 man rosters and all. In basketball it takes both stats and rings to get into the top 10. All of the top 10 guys in basketball have 3 rings or more, maybe Hakeem with 2 is the only one that doesn't. Leroid has 4, Jordan 6, Kobe 5, Shaq 4, Bird 3, Magic 5, etc. Even if Jokic wins a second ring I hesitate to kick Hakeem out of the top 10 because Hakeem was elite on both ends and a FAR better defender than Jokic will ever be. And like I said, I like Fat Serb a lot. His not giving a shit about basketball and wanting to go home to his horses cracks me up. He's the greatest player ever that really appears to not have one F to give.
 
MusterX said:
Yea, football is a little different because there are so many moving parts on a football team, 60 man rosters and all. In basketball it takes both stats and rings to get into the top 10. All of the top 10 guys in basketball have 3 rings or more, maybe Hakeem with 2 is the only one that doesn't. Leroid has 4, Jordan 6, Kobe 5, Shaq 4, Bird 3, Magic 5, etc. Even if Jokic wins a second ring I hesitate to kick Hakeem out of the top 10 because Hakeem was elite on both ends and a FAR better defender than Jokic will ever be. And like I said, I like Fat Serb a lot. His not giving a shit about basketball and wanting to go home to his horses cracks me up. He's the greatest player ever that really appears to not have one F to give.
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I already have Jokic over Hakeem and in my opinion INEC.

Hakeem's....
A much worse passer (up against GOAT or near GOAT).
Worse decision maker (up against GOAT or near GOAT)..
Worse free throw shooter.
Can't lead a rush.
Significantly worse field goal percentage despite not being nearly the outside threat and shot taker.
Hakeem had like 25 three pointers in his career let alone a viable option for shot clock expiring type shots while not in the post.
Jokic destroys him in pretty much all advanced metrics (after only like 10 seasons in the league versus Hakeem's 18 or so) and a higher defensive IQ in terms of play anticipation and court mapping.
And Jokic plays in a deeper global era with probably 5x the amount of foreign players and higher quality ones.

Olajuwon has significantly better defensive execution in terms of blocks and rim-protection advantage that are great assets and really his only even debatable advantage, but at the same time we now know is an overrated metric in today's evolved game where the offenses are stretched out and so many players are 3 point threats (and steals historically underrated though Olajuwon was very good here too of course) much like how the perimeter two pointer was overrated in the past. Really it seems the Olajuwon argument would be a reskinned Embiid > Jokic argument 76ers fans used to promote but we saw what all that amazing rim-protection has done for the 76ers despite having deeper talent than Denver.

Most people don't realize Denver has never been able to improve defensively when Jokic sits. It gets SIGNIFICANTLY worse and that goes across Javale Maghee, Deandre Jordan, Demarcus Cousins, etc, some of whom are defensive oriented etc. Part of that deals with transition play where the team is generally less coordinated offensively which leads to high transition points for the defense, but a part of it is Jokic actively instructing defenses on how to position and what plays are coming and doing little things like baiting offenses into taking shots that are pleasing.

And last but not least, Jokic is likely the player in history who can least afford to foul out of a game with hopes of his team winning giving the absolutely ridiculous on/off metrics in his career.

And would add Hakeem was int hat best player/MVP discussion for 2 years, maybe 3 at best. Jokic is double that already and still going without signs of slowing down (yet).
 
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Lmao. Hakeem absolutely rapes Jokic on the defensive end and would be averaging 30+ against these cans today.

<36>

Hakeem would probably have five chips if it weren't for the GOAT. Meanwhile, Jokic is losing out on chips and awards to a Canadian cross-dresser.

I legitimately have no idea what the fuck some of you are even watching.


 
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