International [NATO News] Putin: lifting Ukraine missile restrictions would "put NATO at war with Russia"

[LangfordBarrow]

nah disagree with all of that

You support Erdogan??

 

[Halge]

The formal documents detailing the decision(s) use pretty obviously backwards reasoning.
I ran the latest refusal through google translate. See below. It's a long document, but I've highlighted the most important parts in orange if anyone's interested in getting a qualitative view into the minds of Swedish lawmen. Basically, if anyone threatens to blow us up we must do what they want. Forever and ever and ever...

Spoiler: Peace in our time

Decision regarding the application for permission to organize public
gathering
Decision

The police authority decides to reject your application for permission to organize a public gathering in Stockholm on February 13, 2023.

Background and legal regulation

On 6 February 2023, you submitted an application for permission to organize a public event
meeting in Stockholm on 13 February 2023 at 13.00-14.00 outside Iraq
embassy, Baldersgatan 6A, B, 114 27 Stockholm. You state that you want to express
your opinion and demonstrate in front of the Iraqi embassy in Stockholm and that
you will burn the Koran because it is a danger to society and fighting
against international laws, freedoms and democracy. Furthermore, you specify that it should only
be you but that you expect about 50 participants.
Of ch. 2 Section 10 first paragraph of the Ordinance Act (1993:1617) follows that permission to
a general assembly may be refused only if it is necessary for consideration
to the order or safety of the gathering or, as a direct consequence
of it, in its immediate surroundings or with regard to traffic or to
prevent epidemic.
The term "at the meeting" has been given a narrow application. The preparations for
the form of government and the law of order, however, provide some support for not only
the order and safety among the particular people participating in the gathering
but also order and security problems that simultaneously arise in the immediate surroundings of the gathering, and are a direct consequence of it, can lie
as a basis for restrictions on freedom of assembly and demonstration.

The provision in ch. 2 In other words, section 10 of the Public Order Act opens the way for
an application for a general assembly in exceptional cases can be rejected on gmnd by
circumstances that cannot be blamed on the organizer of the general meeting. The purpose of the provision is, according to the coinment, that it should
can be applied for a more general preventive purpose. However, a concrete one is required
risk of disruption in order for it to be applied and the provision is intended
to be used only in extreme exceptional cases.
The police authority has received information from the Security Police which
states that perceived violations against Muslims and Islam, in recent
just over ten years, generated threats against both intended targets in Sweden and Swedish
interests abroad. Perceived violations have been the motive of perpetrators
carried out attacks and in planned attacks. Koran burning outside Turkey
embassy in January 2023 can be found to have acted as a threat to both
Swedish society at large, but also towards Sweden, Swedish interests abroad
and Swedes abroad. The threat is not based solely on isolated events and
individuals but also from an aggregated picture of Sweden as a nation. Thereto
the Security Police handles threats from international terrorist actors against Sweden
and Swedish interests. Sweden has become a more prioritized target for attacks.
Overall, the Security Police assesses that Koran burnings in themselves have increased and
going forward, the threat of attacks against Sweden and Swedish interests may increase
in short term.
A characteristic of terrorist crimes is that this type of crime can occur basically anywhere
at any rate, when the purpose of the crime i.a. is to instill serious fear in one
population. In other words, the crime of terrorism is characterized by terrorist acts taking place
indiscriminately. In contrast to other kinds of serious disturbances of order
and security, you therefore often cannot predict where a terrorist crime will take place
room. Even if the general assembly proceeds peacefully, one can
terrorist crimes, therefore - as a direct consequence of the gathering - are committed against someone
another place. Thus, it does not necessarily matter about the general
the meeting is held at a different location than the one to which the application relates.
The police authority's assessment
In light of the assessment that the Security Police has made of it
impact on the threat of attacks against Sweden and Swedish interests that a Koran burning entails, the Police Authority considers that public order and
security as a result of the planned gathering will not be able to
guaranteed.

Admittedly, there are no concrete circumstances that indicate that it can
serious disturbances of the order or security of it will occur
general assembly or in its immediate surroundings. In the Police Authority's assessment, however, the authority weighs the risk of terrorist attacks
which may occur in other parts of Sweden or against Swedish interests
abroad. The police authority considers in this part that the underlying purpose
with the provision in ch. 2 Section 10 of the Public Order Act is that the police must be able to
prevent serious disturbances of public order and security which
a general assembly may lead to. In this case, as stated above,
information that shows that Koran burnings have been found to be threatening
both Swedish society at large but also towards Sweden, Swedish interests
abroad and Swedes abroad. Although, in light of the terrorist threat
nature, it cannot be said that the terrorist threat will be realized just in the immediate
the proximity of the planned public gathering, the Police Authority believes
that there are conditions to still consider the terrorist threat in the examination according to
the ordinance that is made.
In the proportionality assessment that must always precede a decision like that
now relevant, the Police Authority takes note of the fact that a rejection order according to the provision in ch. 2. Section 10 of the Public Order Act is "consideration of traffic".
It cannot have been the legislator's intention that a demonstration should be denied
because it can cause serious traffic disruption but not because
terrorist threat.
Terrorist threats cannot be prevented by e.g. increased security or barriers at the general assembly. The authority does not see that either
the threat of attack would be reduced if the gathering is held in another location.
All in all, according to the Police Authority, it is necessary to refuse you permission
to the requested demonstration. The application must therefore be rejected.

THE POLICE AUTHORITY
Erik Widstrand
For example Deputy Regional Police Chief

Je suis Charlie.

And now the doctrine is official. From an article released about an hour ago:

The police in Stockholm will, as a rule, deny permission for Koran burning during public gatherings in the future. The reason is that they are deemed to be threatening to Sweden and Swedish interests.

This is what police spokesperson Ola Österling says to SVT Nyheter.

The announcement was made on Thursday after the police rejected an application for permission to burn the Koran at the Iraqi embassy. The rejection is the second in a short time.

The decisions have been appealed. They have also been criticized for restricting freedom of expression.

Ju suis Charlie, not.


https://www.svt.se/nyheter/snabbkollen/polisen-ingen-mer-koranbranning

 

[Arkain2K]

NATO chief says 'time is now' for Turkey to ratify Finland and Sweden membership bids
By Huseyin Hayatsever | February 16, 2023

ANKARA, Feb 16 (Reuters) - NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said on Thursday the "time is now" for Turkey to ratify applications by Finland and Sweden to join the defence alliance.

Stoltenberg was speaking at a joint news conference in Ankara with Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu after German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock this week said she expects all NATO members to ratify the bids "without further delay".

Finland and Sweden applied to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization following Russia's invasion of Ukraine in February last year and their membership bids have been ratified by all allies except Hungary and Turkey.

Turkey is widely seen as the main hold-up, with President Tayyip Erdogan indicating his country could ratify Finland's application while not going ahead with Sweden's.

Turkey says Sweden harbors members of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), which is seen as a terrorist group by Turkey, the European Union and others.

Last month Turkey suspended talks with Sweden and Finland on their applications after a protest during which Rasmus Paludan, leader of the Danish far-right political party Hard Line, burned a copy of the Koran outside the Turkish embassy in Stockholm.

Stoltenberg described Koran-burning protest as "a disgraceful act" and said the Swedish government had demonstrated a strong position against the protest which should be praised.

"For me, this just demonstrates that Sweden and Finland understand and are implementing policies which recognize the concerns that Turkey expressed. And this is why I think that time has come to ratify," he said.

Cavusoglu repeated Turkey's position that it could evaluate Finland and Sweden's bids to join NATO separately.

While conceding that Sweden had changed its legislation on terrorism in line with Turkey's demands, Cavusoglu said the changes should be fully implemented.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...den-nato-bids-separately-minister-2023-02-16/

 

[Rod1]

Turkey says it is "meaningless" to restore NATO dialogue with Sweden, Finland

Turkey’s Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu

ANKARA, Jan 26 (Reuters) - Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said on Thursday it was "meaningless" to hold a trilateral meeting with Sweden and Finland to discuss their NATO bids after protests this month in Stockholm.

Speaking at a news conference, Cavusoglu also said there is no offer to evaluate Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership seperately.

Swedish Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson has said his country wanted to restore NATO dialogue with Turkey after Ankara indefinitely postponed trilateral talks with Sweden and Finland over their membership.

https://www.reuters.com/world/turke...nato-dialogue-with-sweden-finland-2023-01-26/

Just cut all military tech sales to Turkey, lets see how they like relying on Russians or the Chinese.

 

[curryjunkie]

You support Erdogan??

No he's a cunt, but turkey are already in NATO, throwing em out now would push them over to Russia's side. What I meant was I disagreed with what he said about NATO

 

[SurferH2O]

Let's all remember we agreed not to do any of this in 1995.

Putin is a thug asshole, but we clearly are not innocent and have been pushing this for a long time. I don't like these games with the second strongest nuclear arsenal in the world. Can you all imagine if Russia did this with Canada and Mexico?

 

[GhostZ06]

what the fuck did the finns do to deserve this?

 

[Reffson]

How about this? No F-16's for Turkey period.

 

[Boxiana]

This is a country that jails citizens for criticizing the despot. They're a major player in the region but if they're going to demand unreasonable concessions it might be time to take a look at how to eject them from the treaty. It might push them into the Chinese and Russian sphere of influence but sometimes an amputation is necessary to avoid the rot from spreading.

Turkey is at a strategic crossroads geographically. Erdogan knows it and knows how to play it.

 

[Fox by the Sea]

This is a country that jails citizens for criticizing the despot. They're a major player in the region but if they're going to demand unreasonable concessions it might be time to take a look at how to eject them from the treaty. It might push them into the Chinese and Russian sphere of influence but sometimes an amputation is necessary to avoid the rot from spreading.

not happening. turkey is more important to america and britain than 20 finlands and swedens.
harsh but true.
no strategist worth a fuck would leave turkey out of nato, come on now.

 

[SandisLL]

not happening. turkey is more important to america and britain than 20 finlands and swedens.
harsh but true.
no strategist worth a fuck would leave turkey out of nato, come on now.

No one needs to kick them out.
Actually Finland and Sweden doesn't needs to be NATO members.
On 5 th article no one who isn't an idiot will not rely.
The same Turkey and Hungary anyway will 100% block 5 th article enforcing .....

The worth of NATO isn't 5 th article: it is because NATO countries does have privileges in weapons sales and purchase from other NATO countries....
At least not to get monkey models and to sit in 1 st line im waiting list.

All real help is cos mutual agreements and common interest and also from investments done in country x, financial and economical ties between countries.....


The same Cyprus too does know this....

 

[SandisLL]

Actually both Finland and Sweden are capable really torture Turkey.....

While pro turkish posters here might portray how important Turkey is and how 100x more worth Turkey with it's financial trouble, bad harvest and earthquake is.... just cos have more inhabitants?

They are more dependent on energoresources import than the same Finland or Sweden.

More than this: Finland is a bit larger economy than Ukraine and Belarus had together in 2021 th....

They might easily to tell that spare parts to repair ship engine xxxvg model zzzzz can't be delivered because some little failure in factory had happened.
No one in all world is capable to replace this. 0 hope.

Sweden?
They might just tell some from their banks to re think their loans policy for roads and railways projects in Turkey.

Sweden does have A level top notch quality iron ore most suitable to produce stainless steel alloys. Ukraine, Russia, Turkey doesn't have such stuff. It is cheaper and faster to produce from their ore....

 

[SandisLL]

Next thing is really to talk about value for NATO Sweden might gave.

Unlike Turkey Sweden is capable to produce 6 th gen submarines.... and to do R&D work for their development. They are capable to produce semi stealth cruise missiles and years ago were able to produce 4 1/5 generation fighter jets....

Grippen are superior vs any version of Mig 29 and even Su 35...

They does have considerably lower radar reflection than any from Migs....
They are lesser cocky about runway lenght and quality than any version of Mig....

Their flight time for patrol costs lesser per 1 hour than if F-16, Mig-29, F-18 had been used.....


Their biggest con is short range....

Turkey can't produce anything even close to this level and are technologically behind the same Sweden and Finland by some 20 years to catch the gap.

This.....reality.
Mass with bodies ofc Turkey might provide more....

 

[SandisLL]

If about Finland only ppl with 0 interest in big scale commercial shipping business might tell " ohh, Turkey is 100X more important ".

For business investments and possible reward difference is most important thing.

World's undisputed leader to produce slow and super large inline 2 stroke diesel engines for commercial fleet is.....Finland.
Undisputed 40 + years in row.

Their businessmans ofc as all capitalists did all the best in their abilities to relocate production to low salaries countries.
They mainly really had achieved their goal with insane and titanic efforts during long years....

Exception was one niche product: engine's lineage used by largest cargo ships in world.

They still are Undisputed....40 years all world worked very hard to beat them....
Sorry for Turkey it will be....next 100 years...

If today the same U.S, South Korea and Japan and U.K are paying..... cos " Finland isn't important, this unlike Turkey is " small village ".....

The same Sweden or Japan will need 20 years to beat them in this niche.
Not alone to talk about Turkey.

 

[Diamondsareforever47]

If Turkey was kicked out of NATO they wont join Russia or China. Russia's NATO called the CSTO is only for former Soviet nations and hypothetically if Iran ever reformed them as well. Russia does not want an independent nation part of CSTO, they only want puppets. The SCO is more about coordination not a true alliance because India and Pakistan are both in it and Saudis want in and Israel wants to be a dialogue partner and of course China and Russia are not true allies like the US and UK are or Russia and Belarus are. China and Russia is a mutually beneficial relationship against a larger foe the West. Also if Russia outright wins then NATO folds. If Ukraine wins then NATO expands. Turkey will wait likely till this fully plays out.

 

[SandisLL]

If Turkey was kicked out of NATO they wont join Russia or China. Russia's NATO called the CSTO is only for former Soviet nations and hypothetically if Iran ever reformed them as well. Russia does not want an independent nation part of CSTO, they only want puppets. The SCO is more about coordination not a true alliance because India and Pakistan are both in it and Saudis want in and Israel wants to be a dialogue partner and of course China and Russia are not true allies like the US and UK are or Russia and Belarus are. China and Russia is a mutually beneficial relationship against a larger foe the West. Also if Russia outright wins then NATO folds. If Ukraine wins then NATO expands. Turkey will wait likely till this fully plays out.

Piss off, Spacetime.

No one will kick them out from NATO.

Your Russia is fighting in very small mini war laboratorium not with NATO.
How " badly " had worked on your Russia my russian comrade missiles manufactured in 1984 th?

Don't cry.
Turkey will not be told any bare thing.

Most likely your comrades in Turkey will get just some commercial credits not issued.

Food importer today, fuel importer, imparialistic ambitions, huge financial problems, bad harvest, earthquake and still so big ambitions?

I don't care even if they tomorrow will be an oblastj in Russia.

Russian taxpayers deserved to get such stone on their necks.
Or chinesse.

I don't mind, they might apply to be province in China. For me will be 0 problems.

Hungary btw might do the same.
Zimbabwe too.

 

[Arkain2K]

Hungary further delays vote on Sweden, Finland joining NATO
By JUSTIN SPIKE | March 2, 2023

BUDAPEST, Hungary (AP) — Hungary has further delayed a vote on ratifying Sweden and Finland’s NATO accession bids, according to an updated schedule published Thursday on the National Assembly’s website, the latest in a series of postponements that have frustrated Western allies.

The delay, which pushes the vote back by two weeks to the parliamentary session beginning March 20, comes as Hungary remains the only NATO member country besides Turkey that hasn’t yet approved the two Nordic countries’ bids to join the Western military alliance.

Hungary’s populist prime minister, Viktor Orban, has said that he is personally in favor of the two countries joining NATO, but alleges that the governments in Stockholm and Helsinki have “spread blatant lies” about Hungary which have raised questions among lawmakers in his party on whether to approve the bids.

In a radio interview on Feb. 24, Orban confirmed that Hungary would send a parliamentary delegation to Sweden and Finland to seek “clarification” on such issues before the ratification could come to a vote in parliament.

“It’s not right for them to ask us to take them on board while they’re spreading blatant lies about Hungary, about the rule of law in Hungary, about our democracy and about life here,” Orban said. “(How) can anyone want to be our ally in a military system while they’re shamelessly spreading lies about Hungary? So let’s stop for a friendly word and ask them how this can be.”

The delays, which have come in succession since July 2022, have frustrated some in the European Union as well as members of Hungary’s opposition parties.

In comments in Hungary’s parliament on Wednesday, Agnes Vadai, a liberal lawmaker and a former secretary of state in Hungary’s ministry of defense, criticized the governing Fidesz party for the numerous delays, and accused them of deliberately dragging their feet on the vote.

“This could have been a quick and simple issue in Hungary’s parliament, but it wasn’t. It wasn’t because there was always some excuse or stalling tactic from the governing party,” Vadai said, adding that dispatching a parliamentary delegation to Sweden and Finland was “the newest trick to postpone.”

The Hungarian delegation is expected to meet with Swedish assembly Speaker Andreas Norlén and other lawmakers in Sweden’s parliament, the Riksdag, next Tuesday, according to a Riksdag statement sent to The Associated Press.

That meeting will focus on “the ongoing ratification process of Sweden’s NATO application, which is ongoing in the Hungarian parliament,” the Riksdag wrote in the statement.

A unanimous vote of all 30 NATO members is needed to admit new countries. With the exception of Hungary and Turkey, all other 28 members had approved membership for the Nordic countries by the end of September.

The northern European neighbors dropped their long-standing military neutrality and sought NATO membership in May in response to Russia’s war in Ukraine.

Turkey has pressed the two countries to crack down on exiled members of Kurdish and other groups it sees as terrorists to secure ratification, and signaled it might vote for Finland’s accession but not for Sweden’s.

https://apnews.com/article/hungary-delays-sweden-finland-nato-vote-508d7497259570c5fa15e547d8c4b005

 

[650lb Sumo]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65132527

Finland will become the 31st member of Nato after Turkey's parliament voted to approve its application.

Turkey had delayed Finland's bid to join the West's defensive alliance for months - complaining the Nordic nation was supporting "terrorists".

Sweden, which applied to join Nato at the same time last year, is still being blocked by Ankara over similar complaints.

Any Nato expansion needs the support of all its members.

Finland will now be formally admitted into Nato at its next summit, taking place in July in Lithuania.

 

[Bald1]

Hungary further delays vote on Sweden, Finland joining NATO
By JUSTIN SPIKE | March 2, 2023

https://apnews.com/article/hungary-delays-sweden-finland-nato-vote-508d7497259570c5fa15e547d8c4b005

First off, fuck Orbán for the way he's handled the Russian invasion of Ukr.

At the same time, if you run a smear campaign against people don't be surprised if those same people fuck with you in retaliation. Bunch of toddlers.

 

[Fluffernutter]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65132527

Finland will become the 31st member of Nato after Turkey's parliament voted to approve its application.

Turkey had delayed Finland's bid to join the West's defensive alliance for months - complaining the Nordic nation was supporting "terrorists".

Sweden, which applied to join Nato at the same time last year, is still being blocked by Ankara over similar complaints.

Any Nato expansion needs the support of all its members.

Finland will now be formally admitted into Nato at its next summit, taking place in July in Lithuania.

What does Turkey get in return?