International [NATO News] Putin: lifting Ukraine missile restrictions would "put NATO at war with Russia"

[Snowblindlove]

This is the power of Russian education.

I am not russian. Stop responding to me also you are just an angry jerk

 

[Cole train]

Watch putin say its fine then.
6 months forward suspicious looking green men start appearing near border lol

 

[Yehudim]

Watch putin say its fine then.
6 months forward suspicious looking green men start appearing near border lol

Not enough sympathetic Russians to host the little green men, I would imagine.

 

[Bald1]

I know a world led by China is more fair and better. Ideally we get a multipolar world

This has got me questioning your motives, awareness of Chinese policy as well as your sanity.

 

[Snowblindlove]

This has got me questioning your motives, awareness of Chinese policy as well as your sanity.

We can message in private message if you wish. My point of view is coming from a rational place.

 

[HOLA]

This is the power of Russian education.

If Putin actually does crap out many of our posters are going to be at a complete loss as to what to write here. The human centipede pipeline of garbage that ends up here will have it's head cut off and they'll be rudderless.

 

[Bald1]

We can message in private message if you wish. My point of view is coming from a rational place.

Lay it out here, if you will. I'm not much for for private messaging. Or, we could move it to the Russia/Ukr thread, or even the lounge.

My objections come from a liberal perspective mixed with some small experience living under a collectivist, authoritarian system.

 

[Cole train]

Yeah man having NATO right next to St. Petersburg is not a threat for Russia.

In related news, the Russian economy is booming, the special military operation will end in 2 weeks with Russian victory, and Western leaders will be tried and hanged like Nazi leaders for crimes against mother Russia.

Tactically estonia is closer to saint pete and latvia is fairly close to moscow and both in nato.That being said if finland joins the imperiu... i mean nato, nato will be posing threat to

Saint pete again (though finland alone can already missile strike saint pete)
Northern sea navy, russia has big navy base up north if i remember collectly.

Those 2 off top of my head

 

[Snowblindlove]

Lay it out here, if you will. I'm not much for for private messaging. Or, we could move it to the Russia/Ukr thread, or even the lounge.

My objections come from a liberal perspective mixed with some small experience living under a collectivist, authoritarian system.

I wont discuss it here. It derails, I get attacked etc

So oh well then

 

[Mark McMichael]

Excellent post.

And while I'm generally in agreement with @PrinceOfPain, we're miles apart on this topic. And the following seems to be at the center of our unvoiced disagreement:

"Given even a sliver of the power that a country like the United States possesses, only a fool would think they'd be any better, it's almost a guarantee that they would be a lot worse, based on the facts of how they behave as a regional power (utterly incapable of sound diplomacy, devoid of "soft power", relying on military boasts and threats to get their way."

And that sentence gets to the heart of so much that's going on nowadays in the west. No, the "west" isn't some altruistic innocent entity. But let's not pretend that if some other power rose to prominence after WW2 humanity would be better off. Even now, regional powers operate more aggressively and with less reciprocity than the US. This self flagellation coming from within is absolutely idiotic and myopic, while the blame game coming from outside seems to be motivated by anything from jealousy to illogical hate.

Only a fool trusts those with power and it takes an even bigger fool to trust those with power over them. But at least there's a semblance of accountability (this is deteriorating at an alarming pace) as well as checks and balances in the places we call the west. No such things exist in many countries. Russia being a prime example as well as the only relevant one in this case.

But what you are speaking to is a growing tension in the Right.

Prior to Putin invading Ukraine most people like @PrinceOfPain were more focused on 'others' and the 'Left' as the great threat and thus generally in the right overall there was more in common.

There is a growing element on the right though that absolutely craves Authoritarianism and Dictator like leaders (Marjorie Taylor Greene wing), because they assume they will be White males and they will use the power to attack only the people they are ok seeing being attacked (POC, Immigrants, etc).

So those same people would not likely agree with you that had Hitler won and took over things would be worse for them. They think, as white males they would have found their place and HItler would have purged the bigger problem of 'others'.

Those same people would never want the US to go Authoritarian if they thought someone like Bernie might get to rule. It is only under the assumption their choice does.

They are willing to make that gamble now on a Dictator as they fear they will lose the voting power and thus need the system of votes to end.

 

[Snowblindlove]

If Putin actually does crap out many of our posters are going to be at a complete loss as to what to write here. The human centipede pipeline of garbage that ends up here will have it's head cut off and they'll be rudderless.

And Imagine if Biden crapped out and the US broke up.... how the NPCs, Neocons and Liberals would act

 

[Young Calf Kick]

It just feels like you're grasping for straws in order to make it seem like the West is "losing", and trying to frame Sweden and Finland joining NATO as some sort of exchange where the West loses the East, by taking in two countries that according to you are meaningless. Honestly the first sentence of your post is something you yourself should reflect upon, because you've been a pretty pragmatic, logical guy in the past, but now you're sounding like someone who's heavily emotionally invested, and unable to let go of a narrative that just doesn't reflect reality, that being the idea that Russia is in any way winning anything in this conflict. Ukrainian propaganda or not, the truth is that by merely invading they already fucked themselves. I stated prior to the invasion, that Russia invading would be the biggest geo-political mistake in Europe since WW2, and it has turned out to be exactly that. But as I've said, Russia has also made preparations for such a scenario so they are capable of taking the hit, in the form of sanctions, loss of equipment and loss of lives. It's just not in any way, shape or form, a good thing for them. This is Russia's Vietnam, Russia's Iraq, except it hits a lot closer than either of those conflicts did for the American, considering how closely related the Ukrainian and Russian populations have been throughout history.

It's pretty funny actually that I've been simultaneously called a Russian bot, and then a guy who has been brainwashed by Western propaganda in two separate threads on the very same forum. It just shows, again, how emotional people are about this thing, people who for the most part reside on an entirely different continent, whereas I actually neighbour Russia and could become physically involved if the situation escalates. Even so, I think I've looked at the situation pretty objectively and have acknowledged on numerous occasions that NATO expansion is not something that I'm in favour of, by any means. As someone who has gone through the Finnish military, and who is still enlisted in the event of war, the idea of being militarily allied with countries that have launched invasions and to this day are harbouring hopes of conquering more territory, that's just not something that I'm comfortable with at all.

But even with that being said, there is no way of framing this event as anything but a huge L for Russia from the beginning. And that's not just because of some Nordic countries joining NATO, which I do agree is largely inconsequential. It's more so the fact that they themselves have lost a moral high ground, a story book narrative that Russia has been telling its citizens and allies, that Russia has "never invaded" another nation (as if). That narrative has now crumbled to a heap in front of everyone's eyes, and they're seeing for themselves exactly what sort of a country Russia truly is. Given even a sliver of the power that a country like the United States possesses, only a fool would think they'd be any better, it's almost a guarantee that they would be a lot worse, based on the facts of how they behave as a regional power (utterly incapable of sound diplomacy, devoid of "soft power", relying on military boasts and threats to get their way). Nobody wants to see them gain more influence, certainly not anyone in Russia's vicinity, not until they learn a better way of utilizing that influence.

It's hard to see Russia as anything but the West's useful boogeyman at this point, willing to come to do its bidding whenever some of its institutions, such as NATO, have lost credibility and purpose. Putin restored all of that credibility in the span of just a few months. That's all on him, it sure as hell wasn't Joe Biden or anyone else.

 

[Yehudim]

And Imagine if Biden crapped out and the US broke up.... how the NPCs, Neocons and Liberals would act

Refer to this post:

What are you rambling about. Your past post made no sense and Idk why you responded to me and what you are talking about and alleging now is just a delusional opinion not fact.

 

[HOLA]

And Imagine if Biden crapped out and the US broke up.... how the NPCs, Neocons and Liberals would act

The US wouldn't break up if Joe Biden died, you're delirious.

 

[Bald1]

I wont discuss it here. It derails, I get attacked etc

So oh well then

Live a little. There's no safe spaces here. We all put ourselves on the line and gett attacked voicing our disagreements. That's why this place, despite being a dysfunctional mess is worth visiting.

 

[Bald1]

But what you are speaking to is a growing tension in the Right.

Prior to Putin invading Ukraine most people like @PrinceOfPain were more focused on 'others' and the 'Left' as the great threat and thus generally in the right overall there was more in common.

There is a growing element on the right though that absolutely craves Authoritarianism and Dictator like leaders (Marjorie Taylor Greene wing), because they assume they will be White males and they will use the power to attack only the people they are ok seeing being attacked (POC, Immigrants, etc).

So those same people would not likely agree with you that had Hitler won and took over things would be worse for them. They think, as white males they would have found their place and HItler would have purged the bigger problem of 'others'.

Those same people would never want the US to go Authoritarian if they thought someone like Bernie might get to rule. It is only under the assumption their choice does.

They are willing to make that gamble now on a Dictator as they fear they will lose the voting power and thus need the system of votes to end.

Homer?

While I disagree with your rather uncharitable take of the people on the "right", I think your assessment of growing authoritarianism is spot on. Except I see it on both sides. There were plenty of lefties here in Canada completely cool with Trudeau saying there will be no vaccination exemptions, then calling into validity the mere existence of people who disagrees with him. This is a byproduct of being so damned polarized that many think that any disagreement means there can not be agreement or compromise on other topics. Binary foolishness.

As for the Hitler bit? My paternal grandfather got tossed into jail after WW2 because he looked like the ideal German. I'm his spitting image, but I'm repulsed by the prospect of the world Hitler wanted.


Anyways, as a sign of respect to @Arkain2K, I'll quit derailing his thread. Feel free to reach out elsewhere if you want to continue.

 

[Day Drinking]

I am talking real papers and what russian strategists have said for years.

Words in press arent too be too read into. We cant similarly take everything Biden or his press fools says with or as absolutr truth of what US policy is under Neoliberals or under Trumpers etc. There are major variations

I am telling you if you do your HW on this you will find that from Russian policy going back decades Finland was to ideally remain neutral but it in Nato isnt the threat to Russian interests as Ukraine is ans that is for a multitude of reasons.

How do I do my homework on whatbrussian strategists say without the press?

 

[HOLA]

How do I do my homework on whatbrussian strategists say without the press?

Take it straight from the horse's mouth.

Dugin: "I'm sure we can destroy the EU because we are pretty good at propaganda online."

 

[Arkain2K]

Watch putin say its fine then.
6 months forward suspicious looking green men start appearing near border lol

Not enough sympathetic Russians to host the little green men, I would imagine.

Good thing the Finns don't want anything to do with dirt-poor Russian-speaking East Karelia, or else that might give Russia an excuse for "denazification".

 

[GhostZ06]

Good thing the Finns don't want anything to do with dirt-poor Russian-speaking East Karelia, or else that might give Russia an excuse for "denazification".

i'm smelling some "nazification" coming from this post. you need to settle down.