My knees....
- Thread starter TigerDGC
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Aaron Howard
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Note the knes in relation to the toes.
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Aaron Howard
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From an article I have:
So, the question arises of whether or not the knees coming in front of the toes during the Olympic squat is dangerous. Fry, Smith, and Schilling (2003) examined joint kinetics during back squats under two conditions.(1) In the first condition, a board placed in front of the participants' shins restricted the forward displacement of the knees. In the second condition, movement wasn't restricted at all; they squatted normally, and the knees passed the toes (gasp!).
The researchers found that restricting the forward excursion of the knees during the squat increased anterior lean of the trunk and promoted an increased "internal angle at the knees and ankles." The results were a 22% decrease in knee torque and a 1070% increase in hip torque!
Sure, they "saved" the knees by limiting stress on them, but those forces were transferred more than tenfold to the hips and lower back! The researchers concluded that "appropriate joint loading during this exercise may require the knees to move slightly past the toes". "May?" Ugh. I mean honestly; look at these photos that the authors included. Isn't the lumbo-pelvic position in "B" just lovely?
Source: Fry and Smith, 2003, J Strength Cond Res.
So, the question arises of whether or not the knees coming in front of the toes during the Olympic squat is dangerous. Fry, Smith, and Schilling (2003) examined joint kinetics during back squats under two conditions.(1) In the first condition, a board placed in front of the participants' shins restricted the forward displacement of the knees. In the second condition, movement wasn't restricted at all; they squatted normally, and the knees passed the toes (gasp!).
The researchers found that restricting the forward excursion of the knees during the squat increased anterior lean of the trunk and promoted an increased "internal angle at the knees and ankles." The results were a 22% decrease in knee torque and a 1070% increase in hip torque!
Sure, they "saved" the knees by limiting stress on them, but those forces were transferred more than tenfold to the hips and lower back! The researchers concluded that "appropriate joint loading during this exercise may require the knees to move slightly past the toes". "May?" Ugh. I mean honestly; look at these photos that the authors included. Isn't the lumbo-pelvic position in "B" just lovely?
Source: Fry and Smith, 2003, J Strength Cond Res.
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Aaron Howard
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Also remember we're NOT talking about powerlifting style squats here. We're talking strength training.
Aaron Howard said:Note the knes in relation to the toes.
That's not even a squat. It's a clean. What is the point of this? You're compairing a motion that people have to learn from a qualified coach (IE they know what they are donig) to a motion that every Joe Shmoe seems to think he can critique it. Not even closely the same.
Aaron Howard said:
Last time I checked, powerlifting style was about strength. If you want to say that powerlifting squats are less sport specific then say close foot ones, fine you can make that arguement. But to say that powerlifting squats are not strength training? Come on man.
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Aaron Howard
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Front squat != clean.
Sorry.
Sorry.
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Aaron Howard
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Sean S said:
I'm not making that argument. I do compete in powerlifting afterall, and wouldn't try to disparriage the sport.
Powerlifting is about lifting the most weight possible with the least effort under a specific set of rules.
Aaron Howard said:
Fair enough, but the point still stands. You are compairing an olympic motion that has to be learned from an olympic coach to a motion that seems to have more "experts" on it then anything. My point is basically that it's possible the knee motion may be ok in a sport where you are forced to learn perfect form. However, if I read your quote above correctly, it seems it agrees about the knee thing but makes the point you lose knee saftey for more results. Did I read that wrong?
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Aaron Howard
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In reference to: "Last time I checked, powerlifting style was about strength."
I just contended that powerlifting style squats are not about strength. They're about moving the most weight possible the shortest distance possible under the rules provided.
That could very possibly turn into the wrong type of arguement here, so I'll concede that one to you.
I just contended that powerlifting style squats are not about strength. They're about moving the most weight possible the shortest distance possible under the rules provided.
That could very possibly turn into the wrong type of arguement here, so I'll concede that one to you.
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Aaron Howard
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Sean S said:
I can dig this -- for the most part.
My biggest beef was the astounding "don't let your knees go past your toes, else God will smite you" mentality in this thread.
Aaron Howard said:
Maybe you mean power? I think we have a different definition of strength really. Although I think I get what you are saying. We may just be agruing "powerlifting" in definition, which the fault might be on my side.
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Saw the doc today, she said i had some sort of condition (forgot the name of it, will post it up later since i'm hella lazy right now...). She said since I have low quad strength (my legs are WEAK, I bench just as much as I squat.....) all the stress is going to my knee caps and causing the swelling. She told me to correct my form on my squats, increase my quad strength (isolation exercises?) and cut back on the weight for like 6 weeks (3x10 okay?), she also told me to do some stretches and ice them up after my workouts. I'm not suppose to put my knees under a lot of stress for awhile, are deadlifts okay for my knees?
cockysprinter
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Sean S said:
this is ignoring the biomechanics behind squatting motions in general. whenever the knee goes past the toes additional stress will be placed on the knees. this doesnt matter if the motion is a clean, front squat, back squat, overhead squat, snatch, etc. however, the degree of stress placed on the knee will also depend on the form of the squat. coming forward onto the toes while attempting to keep the heels on the floor (as most beginners do) puts even more stress on the knee and is the real source of knee problems.
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TigerDGC said:
this is interesting.
