Musk , Mars and becoming an interplanetary species

[Greoric]

Cool thread idea, but I have no fucking idea. I know that innovation often comes from "madmen" with insane ideas.

Can someone explain why we would want to inhabit Mars in the first place?

Because the statists have ruined this planet.

 

[kpt018]

Because the statists have ruined this planet.

Yeah, we are doing a number on this planet. However, it's a million times more practical to solve the problems here than to travel 250 million miles and inhabit an uninhabitable planet. Plus, if we destroy this one what makes anyone think we would destroy Mars too?

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

Perhaps, but I suppose a massive jump in technology is required since Mars is 249 million miles away (or more). The benefits would have to exceed the costs.

Well when we launch rovers and probes we time it to perigee - so its only around 57 million miles away - and our current technology has craft travel at peak around 36,373 mph - so our knowledge and success rate of orbital mechanics coupled with our craft tech is making the commute more and more plausible.

Not a massive jump at all - factor in exponential rate progression in technology...

Remember - we hit the moon with technology less dynamic than 80's calculator and hit neptune with less robust tech than a original Nintendo

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

The latter.

http://www.nasa-usa.de/sites/default/files/80660main_ApolloFS.pdf

i am aware of the benefits - surprised atomic clock s and proving time dilation didnt make it.

However, also interesting that list did not account for the U-235 power sources used - the same stats used in com relay for apollo / space race - still have nuclear reactors flying 300- 800 miles above our heads...and they get lower and lower every year.

Oversight seeing how they knew about solar tech.

 

[JDragon]

Yes, we know there's resources there in the form of carbons there. The goal many of these capsule test is to see if we can form the logistics to bring cargo there and back. Lots of things may not seem cost effective to you in its early stages, but as technology progresses, the cost lowers. We have seen this with a plethora of areas. It use to cost almost a million dollars to store a gig of data - now it's a few cents.

Im on the side that sees Mars as a future oil site - rather than Earth v2,

I just don't believe we will ship huge quantities of materials from Mars to Earth, like, ever.
I also don't believe Mars settlements will be more than scientist villages or fancy long-term tourist destinations.
I do believe that the the way is the goal. By trying to get to Mars, we will reap technological benefits and later have huge scientific progress. Also setting up a Mars base will do the same thing.

 

[Greoric]

Yeah, we are doing a number on this planet. However, it's a million times more practical to solve the problems here than to travel 250 million miles and inhabit an uninhabitable planet. Plus, if we destroy this one what makes anyone think we would destroy Mars too?

Oh agreed 100%. People should pursue whatever objectives they want with their own resources. In my opinion, this is a beautiful example of how we don't need a coercive institution to achieve major collaborative goals. Musk's plans are one of the greatest forward looking objectives we have as a species let alone as an individual company.

And simply put, if we're to survive long term we're going to have to start colonizing other planets. It's an eerie thought that we haven't observed another civilization getting to that level before us though considering we're the inhabitants of a second or third generation star.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

I just don't believe we will ship huge quantities of materials from Mars to Earth, like, ever.
I also don't believe Mars settlements will be more than scientist villages or fancy long-term tourist destinations.
I do believe that the the way is the goal. By trying to get to Mars, we will reap technological benefits and later have huge scientific progress. Also setting up a Mars base will do the same thing.

Why? Merlin rockets have incredible thrust capabilities to break the 7mps needed to crack mars hill sphere - thats just with a simple alterteration to its diffusion process. Who is to say how far that tech improves in 10 years? It doubles saturn v in less than 5 years.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

Yeah, we are doing a number on this planet. However, it's a million times more practical to solve the problems here than to travel 250 million miles and inhabit an uninhabitable planet. Plus, if we destroy this one what makes anyone think we would destroy Mars too?

Just to play devils advocate - Many believe Mars is a dead planet - much like earth would be in the event its atmosphere diminishes / allen belt recession . So why wouldnt we exploit the dead planet in order to produces what is needed for life on the living one?

Just devils advocating here.

 

[BearGrounds]

Why are you taking the planet as a whole monolith when there are several distinctions to make? I'd argue that generally the West has managed themselves pretty well, leading to a technological boom and an ever increasing breakthrough in medicine that allow you to live more and more comfortably. Especially leading to the chance to do what Musk is doing.

The planet as a whole would be wise to adopt those values, but they don't want to. Their loss. They can kill each other over some vague texts, while Musk and like minded people are going to be taking us into a completely new world.

We're talking in a planetary manner ITT, which is why I'm talking about the planet as a whole. As the saying goes, "You're only as strong as your weakest link".

 

[The ScorpioN]

We're talking in planetary terms, which is why I'm talking about the planet as a whole. As the saying goes, "You're only as strong as your weakest link".

The saying doesn't apply here at all. We're not going to war against an existential threat of aliens destroying Earth. Musk isn't trying to gather the whole planet and send them to Mars. He's doing expeditions (funded by himself, which is important) for a possible future colony. The whole planet has nothing to do with it.

I'll repeat again, if the planet embraced Western secular values, which led to huge advancements in literally every area of knowledge, they'd be along for the ride. But since they aren't, Musk (and the West is general terms) is under no obligation to try and drag them along through their own resistance.

 

[BearGrounds]

The saying doesn't apply here at all. We're not going to war against an existential threat of aliens destroying Earth. Musk isn't trying to gather the whole planet and send them to Mars. He's doing expeditions (funded by himself, which is important) for a possible future colony. The whole planet has nothing to do with it.

I'll repeat again, if the planet embraced Western secular values, which led to huge advancements in literally every area of knowledge, they'd be along for the ride. But since they aren't, Musk (and the West is general terms) is under no obligation to try and drag them along through their own resistance.

It's not my place to decide Musk's obligations. It's his money to throw around, so he can throw it around in whatever manner he'd like to. His choices are on him, after all.

But I'm well within my right to disagree with the believed fruitfulness of his chosen endeavors. That is the topic for discussion here. It's simply my opinion and you're more than welcome to disagree.

As far as my usage of that popular saying, it's very applicable. How far does Musk make it if the angry warriors of this world decide to start nuking things, or we damage our ecosystems beyond repair, or we exhaust our resources here before his plan can be realized? He makes it nowhere.

 

[The ScorpioN]

It's not my place to decide Musk's obligations. It's his money to throw around, so he can throw it around in whatever manner he'd like to. His choices are on him, after all.

But I'm well within my right to disagree with the believed fruitfulness of his chosen endeavors. That is the topic for discussion here. It's simply my opinion and you're more than welcome to disagree.

As far as my usage of that popular saying, it's very applicable. How far does Musk make it if the angry warriors of this world decide to start nuking things?

Maybe his whole motivation is to make it before the angry warriors start nuking things? What you're saying is that we should try to change the angry warriors before doing space exploration. That historically has been much less fruitful than trying to advance scientific knowledge.

I understand it's your opinion, it just sounds like it's an idealist opinion instead of a pragmatic one.

 

[BearGrounds]

Maybe his whole motivation is to make it before the angry warriors start nuking things? What you're saying is that we should try to change the angry warriors before doing space exploration. That historically has been much less fruitful than trying to advance scientific knowledge.

I understand it's your opinion, it just sounds like it's an idealist opinion instead of a pragmatic one.

From where I'm sitting, pragmatism doesn't involve colonizing Mars. But clearly that's where we disagree. Still, I thank you for providing your alternative viewpoint, and I promise you it has been considered with respect, not simply written off because it was not in-line with my taken stance.

 

[PrinceOfPain]

It's Prince Planet. Because no one can compare to the prince who wears a medallion on his chest...

When it comes to anime I roll old-school. Because I'm cool like that.

Look, I enjoy stuff like comics and sci-fi, too. Have since I was a kid. But I don't let my love of fantastic, escapist entertainment blind me to the realities of war, poverty, disease - the realities of human suffering on planet earth.

People who think the highest priority of science should be building rocket ships are confusing what's "cool" with what can best serve the interests of the human race.

I mean, my six year old is deeply into dinosaurs right now. I'm sure if I asked him what Elon Musk should be directing his money and vision towards my son would say trying to clone a T-Rex.

Let's be grown ups.

This is pretty much anathema to the sort of thinking that makes humans worthwhile.
Maybe it isn't possible to get the human race away from this planet, but if it is, it's literally more important than anything else we could do. What's in the best interests of the human race is making sure we can't simply commit global suicide, which we're very much capable of doing right now. Get us off the planet and surviving somewhere else, and you've more-or-less guaranteed us an eternity in which to figure out how to be more decent beings.

Why is the child's dream not the one that thinks we're going to achieve peace on Earth before we find a way to get off the Earth?
I simply have more faith in our technological prowess than in the depth of our morality/common sense.

What would you propose as a more realistic goal? Peace on Earth? An end to war? Respect for our environment? Nuclear restraint?
To me, those sound like a wishful thinking.

Human nature has seen us killing one another for stupid reasons for the entirety of out existence. We've already committed to a path, and if peace on Earth was our priority we'd never have left our caves.

Take the best we have to offer, shoot them into space, and preserve the best of us for eternity.

 

[MeatheadMike]

Sure, the pissing contest between super powers drove some technological progress. The US also gave war criminals a pass to make that happen. Is that the cost of progress? Or are there better ways?

In other words, perhaps two heads might just be better than one, and cooperation might just be a better alternative to egotistical dick measuring. Can we give that a go? Of course not. Let's squabble over resources, allow people to starve to death like "who cares?", and conduct nukes tests until the cows come home (we feed them better than many humans, lol).

Because clearly the only way to advance scientifically is through conflict and competition aimed at planting flags on uninhabitable space rocks before the other guy, right? Is that what you would have me and everyone else believe?

I just don't buy it. Sorry.

A project to colonize mars is something I don't see humanity as being ready for. Not by a long shot; especially given our inability to manage our life-bearing home planet (while being it's most capable stewards).

Except the space exploration research being conducted by SpaceX is not a the result of a conflict/pissing match between 2 super powers. So basically none of the negative things you listed apply here, but the previously mentioned potential technological benefits yielded by the space research would.

 

[kpt018]

This is pretty much anathema to the sort of thinking that makes humans worthwhile.
Maybe it isn't possible to get the human race away from this planet, but if it is, it's literally more important than anything else we could do. What's in the best interests of the human race is making sure we can't simply commit global suicide, which we're very much capable of doing right now. Get us off the planet and surviving somewhere else, and you've more-or-less guaranteed us an eternity in which to figure out how to be more decent beings.

Why is the child's dream not the one that thinks we're going to achieve peace on Earth before we find a way to get off the Earth?
I simply have more faith in our technological prowess than in the depth of our morality/common sense.

What would you propose as a more realistic goal? Peace on Earth? An end to war? Respect for our environment? Nuclear restraint?
To me, those sound like a wishful thinking.

Human nature has seen us killing one another for stupid reasons for the entirety of out existence. We've already committed to a path, and if peace on Earth was our priority we'd never have left our caves.

Take the best we have to offer, shoot them into space, and preserve the best of us for eternity.

If it is in our nature to destroy each other and out habitats why would it be any different on Mars?

 

[genecop]

Going to Mars for colonization is an amazing venture, Musk is truly a Genius and a Visionary. I am just not sure about the wisdom or nessacity in going there at this time. Earth is a rich beautiful an abundant planet, but we have issues here now that need addressing. Imagine if Musk and his assets went toward cleaning up our water, our environment, and really getting off of fossil fuels by 2020...There is so much left here (earth) to do and discover, let's focus here first..

 

[BearGrounds]

Except the space exploration research being conducted by SpaceX is not a the result of a conflict/pissing match between 2 super powers. So basically none of the negative things you listed apply here, but the previously mentioned potential technological benefits yielded by the space research would.

True. I suppose that was just me ranting a bit, and somewhat overlooking the point of why you brought up that example. However, I did cover how I felt about what you're saying in my posts here. I feel there are still space projects to get involved in that can drive technology that are much more sensible, as well as beneficial to humanity - such as asteroid deflection.

Bolstering life here is more practical and important, imo, than Mars colonization, at this point in time (which, as I've stated from the beginning, I believe to be putting the cart before the horse.)

 

[AnGrYcRoW]

Oh agreed 100%. People should pursue whatever objectives they want with their own resources. In my opinion, this is a beautiful example of how we don't need a coercive institution to achieve major collaborative goals. Musk's plans are one of the greatest forward looking objectives we have as a species let alone as an individual company.

And simply put, if we're to survive long term we're going to have to start colonizing other planets. It's an eerie thought that we haven't observed another civilization getting to that level before us though considering we're the inhabitants of a second or third generation star.

Are you familiar with the Fermi paradox, interesting stuff

Moving forward, we have no choice but to get completely speculative. Let’s imagine that after billions of years in existence, 1% of Earth-like planets develop life (if that’s true, every grain of sand would represent one planet with life on it). And imagine that on 1% of those planets, the life advances to an intelligent level like it did here on Earth. That would mean there were 10 quadrillion, or 10 million billion intelligent civilizations in the observable universe.[/QUOTE ]

http://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/fermi-paradox.html

So where the heck is everybody ?

 

[GhostZ06]

Perhaps, but I suppose a massive jump in technology is required since Mars is 249 million miles away (or more). The benefits would have to exceed the costs.

lol are you saying we can't do that? When a country heavily invests heavily in space techolgy we naturally get more advanced. we were suppose to be on mars in the 1970s, but plans where canceled. We already knew how to get there, an were about to drop a couple billion to get there.
We were already on the moon in the freakin 60's id say if we made it there, imagine where we would be if the nasa budget never changed.