Multiple fence grabs to stand up from heavy ground and pound should be a DQ loss

[Alpha_T83]

multiple fence grabs? He grabbed it once to pull himself up. Multiple makes it seem like the fight went on longer than it did and Texeira was doing it the whole fight.

He grabbed it at least twice, possibly three times as one of his hands was out of the camera range for a second.

 

[TryggeTryggvar]

The problem is this is by far the most egregious fence grab I've seen. You're comparing apples to oranges when you're talking about holding the fence to prevent a takedown or grabbing the fence to stand up from a grappling position.

Let's assume for a second the fight wasn't stopped, and Tallison was allowed to continue. Tallison was seconds away from being TKO'd. If he hadn't grabbed the fence to stand up, I think he was done. That means Tallison's multiple fence grabs took away a potential TKO from Lewis. That's far more egregious than any other fence grab you can reference.

There's really no precedent that I know of to compare this to. That's why I think this is egregious enough to deserve a DQ. I'm glad the fight was stopped.

As others have said, turning your back to your opponent and grabbing the fence to stand up is not legally, intelligently defending yourself. That deserves the fight being stopped.

Most of what you are saying is opinions, not facts. Also how tf is standing up from being pounded by lewis not intelligent? Many people "stop" defending themselves for 1-3 seconds when powering up from a bad position, as you need your hands to get up.

If judging was consistent, he should have had a point taken. Tho it is allowed for the ref to disqualify him. What bothers me is the wishy washy reffing. Either enforce fence grabbing strictly, wich they have never done, or carry on like they always have.

 

[maximus__]

To be fair, MMA needs a turtling rule.

Shots to the neck/back of the head should be legal if you turn your back to an opponent. Otherwise, any time a fighter does what Tallison did, the fight needs to be stopped.

It's completely unacceptable to turn your back to a fighter, so he can't legally/easily hit you, and then grab the fence and climb up like this. The rules should FORCE Tallison to face towards Black Beast and try to stand up and eat the shots. Otherwise the fight should be stopped.

100% Tallison should not have been allowed to survive this position with what he did.

This is dumb. Why should everyone have to use the guard position to stand up? It's the worst way in the cage.
Turning the back is one of the most effective ways to get up especially if you ghet to the cage. You just need to continue moving (like he did) and not Aljo it up face down on the mat. That type of prolonged action should be 1-2 shots from being finished, not a fighter standing up. It's MMA, you are going to take shots in transition, it's how you create space to escape.

Below is the area you can't strike. Everyone above 135 has a big enough fist they will catch the ear 99% of the time by simply throwing to the side of the head, making it a legal strike.



Lewis had overswung and ran into the back of Texeira. He was going to have to wrestle or create space to continue throwing anything to cause damage.
The fight was stopped during a portion of back control against the cage...

 

[Alpha_T83]

This is dumb. Why should everyone have to use the guard position to stand up? It's the worst way in the cage.
Turning the back is one of the most effective ways to get up especially if you ghet to the cage. You just need to continue moving (like he did) and not Aljo it up face down on the mat. That type of prolonged action should be 1-2 shots from being finished, not a fighter standing up. It's MMA, you are going to take shots in transition, it's how you create space to escape.

Below is the area you can't strike. Everyone above 135 has a big enough fist they will catch the ear 99% of the time by simply throwing to the side of the head, making it a legal strike.

View attachment 1104731

Lewis had overswung and ran into the back of Texeira. He was going to have to wrestle or create space to continue throwing anything to cause damage.
The fight was stopped during a portion of back control against the cage...

If you're not intelligently defending yourself, the fight should be stopped. And turning your back to your opponent is not intelligently defending yourself. Grabbing the fence (foul) to stand up is not legally defending yourself. The fight should have been stopped and Herzog made the right call.

 

[maximus__]

If you're not intelligently defending yourself, the fight should be stopped. And turning your back to your opponent is not intelligently defending yourself. Grabbing the fence (foul) to stand up is not legally defending yourself. The fight should have been stopped and Herzog made the right call.

How is utilising a wrestling technique that is the primary way to return to your feet in MMA not intelligently defending yourself?

Watch today's UFC fight card. 99% of fighters get back to their feet by turning their back to their opponent and building a base back under them.
It's the most effective strategy in MMA.

Committing a foul is not a TKO. Herzog was the second highest ref featured in my video previously posted for examples of major fence grabs altering fights.
He literally ignored 7 from Sean Omalley when he fought Yan (and multiple glove grabs)...

Don;t defend shitty officiating... that and the judging is ruining the sport. The pure lack of consistency by officials ruins good fights every card.
Lewis lost out by not getting a real finish, Texeira lost out by losing his undefeated record and the fans lost out by not seeing the fight.

 

[Alpha_T83]

How is utilising a wrestling technique that is the primary way to return to your feet in MMA not intelligently defending yourself?

Watch today's UFC fight card. 99% of fighters get back to their feet by turning their back to their opponent and building a base back under them.
It's the most effective strategy in MMA.

Committing a foul is not a TKO. Herzog was the second highest ref featured in my video previously posted for examples of major fence grabs altering fights.
He literally ignored 7 from Sean Omalley when he fought Yan (and multiple glove grabs)...

Don;t defend shitty officiating... that and the judging is ruining the sport. The pure lack of consistency by officials ruins good fights every card.
Lewis lost out by not getting a real finish, Texeira lost out by losing his undefeated record and the fans lost out by not seeing the fight.

There's a difference between turning your back to an opponent in a grappling exchange to stand up, and being ROCKED from a knockdown, eating shots, and then turning your back to the active punches. Completely different.

Sorry but there's no world in which that is intelligent defense. It's exploiting the rules and unsportsmanlike conduct.

 

[maximus__]

There's a difference between turning your back to an opponent in a grappling exchange to stand up, and being ROCKED from a knockdown, eating shots, and then turning your back to the active punches. Completely different.

Sorry but there's no world in which that is intelligent defense. It's exploiting the rules and unsportsmanlike conduct.

Rocked? He landed on his bum with his hands on the ground, scooted back and then managed to work his way to the turtle position and continue building up...
He didn't grab the cage until he had showed he was still completely with it.



You show me in this sequence where he was actually ever out or rocked? He was with it the entire fight.

 

[joy2day]

Pride Rules would solve this problem

Wandy noted that Yuki had a small amount of dirt on his face and was just trying to be helpful by wiping it away with his foot.

 

[Alpha_T83]

Rocked? He landed on his bum with his hands on the ground, scooted back and then managed to work his way to the turtle position and continue building up...
He didn't grab the cage until he had showed he was still completely with it.



You show me in this sequence where he was actually ever out or rocked? He was with it the entire fight.

Good stoppage.

 

[L0ki]

Terrible stoppage.

I can't think of many infractions that should result in calling the fight off when it happens once.

The proper route is warning, strong warning, point deduction(s), and lastly DQ.

An overly stringent judging style would lead in a lot more DQ's and......it fucking sucks when there are a lot of DQ's in rasslin' and I'm imagining peeps would like it even less in MMA.

 

[sdpdude9]

How is utilising a wrestling technique that is the primary way to return to your feet in MMA not intelligently defending yourself?

Watch today's UFC fight card. 99% of fighters get back to their feet by turning their back to their opponent and building a base back under them.
It's the most effective strategy in MMA.

Committing a foul is not a TKO. Herzog was the second highest ref featured in my video previously posted for examples of major fence grabs altering fights.
He literally ignored 7 from Sean Omalley when he fought Yan (and multiple glove grabs)...

Don;t defend shitty officiating... that and the judging is ruining the sport. The pure lack of consistency by officials ruins good fights every card.
Lewis lost out by not getting a real finish, Texeira lost out by losing his undefeated record and the fans lost out by not seeing the fight.

The actual rules state a referee may deduct a point and/or change the position. That’s it.



Furthermore it lays out what may cause a DQ. Essentially if it causes injury or if it’s unsportsmanlike conduct. Neither of those benchmarks are met with a fence grab. It is a regular foul.



And here is how a foul is handled.

This is indisputable proof that neither a TKO nor a DQ should be assessed by the actual rules. These people are arguing what they think the rules should be and not what they actually are.

 

[maximus__]

View attachment 1104761
The actual rules state a referee may deduct a point and/or change the position. That’s it.

View attachment 1104765

Furthermore it lays out what may cause a DQ. Essentially if it causes injury or if it’s unsportsmanlike conduct. Neither of those benchmarks are met with a fence grab. It is a regular foul.

View attachment 1104766

And here is how a foul is handled.

This is indisputable proof that neither a TKO nor a DQ should be assessed by the actual rules. These people are arguing what they think the rules should be and not what they actually are.

No disagreement there. At no point was a DQ or a TKO the correct call, but a DQ is more correct than a TKO at that point of the fight.

Me personally I would have let it play out and removed a point when there was a break in action. Being HW we would have either got a finish or Lewis would have needed a rest after throwing more than 10 shots...

 

[maximus__]

Good stoppage.

Address the question. At what point was he rocked,not defending himself or not improving his position as directed by Herzog?

 

[sdpdude9]

IMO Jason Herzog made the right call stopping Black Beast vs Tallison Texeira, but it should have been ruled a DQ loss for Tallison.



Tallison BLATANTLY grabbed the fence multiple times to stand up from heavy ground and pound. This should be an immediate DQ loss. We shouldn't be allowing fighters to escape from positions like this by breaking the rules. Taking a point away in this position would be completely insufficient. Lewis definitely would have knocked Tallison unconscious had Tallison not grabbed the fence. He wouldn't have been able to get up.

In order to make a DQ call by the rules you must meet these criteria

1) The foul was intentional. The argument Teixeira was so hurt he literally could not stand up otherwise begs the question how can he have the wherewithal to intentionally commit a foul.

2) The foul rises to the level of unsportsmanlike conduct. A fighter may only be disqualified if a foul is intentional and either causes injury that does allow opponent to continue or is unsportsmanlike conduct. Obviously, he did not injure the opponent so unsportsmanlike conduct is the only way this can happen.

A fence grab has never caused a DQ ever. So you need to make the case this rises to a level unseen before and the fighter was purposely acting maliciously and in an unsportsmanlike manner. And it is so egregious that it merits an immediate DQ without warning. And no, a foul is not automatically unsportsmanlike otherwise everybody with be DQ’d for every foul.

 

[sdpdude9]

No disagreement there. At no point was a DQ or a TKO the correct call, but a DQ is more correct than a TKO at that point of the fight.

Me personally I would have let it play out and removed a point when there was a break in action. Being HW we would have either got a finish or Lewis would have needed a rest after throwing more than 10 shots...

Yep, if you want to call it a TKO you essentially need to say constantly improving your position and getting to your feet is not intelligent defense.

If you want to call it a DQ you need to say it was intentional, which concedes the point he was too hurt to even stand since you’re claiming he had the wherewithal to intentionally commit a foul. And then you also need to say it rises to the level of unsportsmanlike conduct, so on the same level of spitting on opponents or gouging eyes.

 

[JBJ was here]

Obviously these fence grabs should not have been a DQ, though a DQ would have been more plausible than a TKO. While the foul(s) made it much easier for Teixeira to improve his position, they weren't after the bell, or referee abuse, or particularly dangerous for the opponent, or even necessary to escape a nearly certain finish; they just helped Teixeira improve position while he was being attacked. The heaviest ground-and-pound was already past by the time of the fence grabs, and the grabs were not the cause of the bad tactical decision by Lewis to stick to Teixeira's back and throw ineffective short punches as he got up rather than taking half a step back and blasting him in the undefended kidneys or knees.

The fence grabs were clearly consequential, which means at least one point should have been taken regardless of a lack of previous warnings (whether the multiple grabs were independently consequential and, if so, whether multiple fouls should have been assessed is another matter that could be legitimately debated), but on the scale of consequential fouls there was nothing particularly unsportsmanlike about them.

 

[Alpha_T83]

In order to make a DQ call by the rules you must meet these criteria

1) The foul was intentional. The argument Teixeira was so hurt he literally could not stand up otherwise begs the question how can he have the wherewithal to intentionally commit a foul.

2) The foul rises to the level of unsportsmanlike conduct. A fighter may only be disqualified if a foul is intentional and either causes injury that does allow opponent to continue or is unsportsmanlike conduct. Obviously, he did not injure the opponent so unsportsmanlike conduct is the only way this can happen.

A fence grab has never caused a DQ ever. So you need to make the case this rises to a level unseen before and the fighter was purposely acting maliciously and in an unsportsmanlike manner. And it is so egregious that it merits an immediate DQ without warning. And no, a foul is not automatically unsportsmanlike otherwise everybody with be DQ’d for every foul.

That's not true. You're adding language to the rules that don't exist. The intentional unsportsmanlike foul can be any foul. The rules DO NOT specify that the foul needs to cause injury. You're 100% making that up.

If the referee feels that a fighter has conducted themselves in an unsportsmanlike manner, they may stop the action of the fight to deduct points or stop the bout to disqualify the fighter.

That is the only clause in the entire rules that matters. If a fighter commits a foul which takes away a possible TKO/submission win from his opponent, the referee can absolutely call a DQ if he feels the foul is egregious enough.

Now, is a ref ever going to REALISTICALLY call a DQ for a fence grab? Right now I would agree it will never happen. But I'm arguing it should happen, and the rules have language that allow it. And this was a clear case where it would be due. You can disagree with that, but the rules 100% allow for this possibility, should a referee decide to make the decision.

 

[Alpha_T83]

Yep, if you want to call it a TKO you essentially need to say constantly improving your position and getting to your feet is not intelligent defense.

If you want to call it a DQ you need to say it was intentional, which concedes the point he was too hurt to even stand since you’re claiming he had the wherewithal to intentionally commit a foul. And then you also need to say it rises to the level of unsportsmanlike conduct, so on the same level of spitting on opponents or gouging eyes.

This is the problem with your point. You're trying to argue that Tallison should have been allowed to continue, and you're flat out fucking wrong. Stopping that fight was the right decision, and any other outcome would be egregious.

Turning your back to your opponent is not intelligent defense. That's why the "intelligent defense" concept exists. Because it's illegal to strike to the back of the head/neck, you're not allowed to turn your back on your opponent without being stopped -- because an opponent throwing punches at your intentionally turned back requires the fight to be stopped, to prevent you from getting an injury due to your lack of intelligent defense.

It's either a TKO because of the lack of intelligent defense, or a DQ for the fence grabs. Either are acceptable.

I don't think you understand these concepts.

 

[sdpdude9]

That's not true. You're adding language to the rules that don't exist.

The intentional unsportsmanlike foul can be any foul. The rules DO NOT specify that the foul needs to cause injury. You're 100% making that up.

Now, is a ref ever going to REALISTICALLY call a DQ for a fence grab? Right now I would agree it will never happen. But I'm arguing it should happen, and the rules have language that allow it. And this was a clear case where it would be due. You can disagree with that, but the rules 100% allow for this possibility, should a referee decide to make the decision.

Here is what a referee can do in the event of a cage grab. But if you deem it intentional here’s the rules for that.


You are wrong. It states if an intentional foul causes an injury the fighter shall lose by DQ. Also says if a fighter has conducted themselves in an unsportsmanlike manner they may deduct points or disqualify. Nowhere does it say a referee can disqualify for any other reason. So you clearly haven’t read the actual rules, so who’s 100% making stuff up now? You’re wrong straight from the fucking book.

 

[sdpdude9]

This is the problem with your point. You're trying to argue that Tallison should have been allowed to continue, and you're flat out fucking wrong. Stopping that fight was the right decision, and any other outcome would be egregious.

Turning your back to your opponent is not intelligent defense. That's why the "intelligent defense" concept exists. Because it's illegal to strike to the back of the head/neck, you're not allowed to turn your back on your opponent without being stopped -- because an opponent throwing punches at your intentionally turned back requires the fight to be stopped, to prevent you from getting an injury due to your lack of intelligent defense.

It's either a TKO because of the lack of intelligent defense, or a DQ for the fence grabs. Either are acceptable.

I don't think you understand these concepts.

Improving position and getting to your feet is 100% intelligent defense every time. It is quite literally exactly what a fighter should do. Working your way up the fence always has a fighters back to the opponent, this is normal. Especially when the guy just escaped 2 positions seconds prior.