Multiple fence grabs to stand up from heavy ground and pound should be a DQ loss

[Harlekin]

If you can't KTFO a dude when you can use full torque and bodyweight while he's defenseless climbing some fence then I doubt arm punches on the ground would do it.

Not allowed to hit him to the back of the head.
Not allowed to hit his spine or near it.
Can't hit him on the chin.
Can't hit his nose. Nor his face properly.
Temple is a possibility, but a very slim chance.

Apart from that Teixeira is a 260 pound brick.

 

[Cartiac]

If desperately climbing up the fence is not enough proof the guy was incapable of intelligently defending himself to justify the ref stoppage, doesn't the guy attacking the ref after the stoppage prove it was the right call? If someone can't tell the difference between Jason Herzog and Derrick Lewis, there is no way they were capable of intelligently defending themselves against Derrick Lewis.

 

[Dr Fong]

That's not true. There's nowhere in the rules that supports what you're saying, specifically about fence grabs.

Petr Yan was instantly disqualified without warning or point deduction, for his illegal knee. Refs don't need to issue warnings or point deductions before a DQ. They give the fighters the rules before the fight starts. That's your warning.

While you are technically correct that MOST of the time fence grabs aren't egregious enough to deserve instant disqualifications, this one was.

You are objectively wrong. The rules explicitly state that a fence grab that has a 'substantial effect' on the fight will incur a 1-point penalty. This makes it different from other fouls, which do not specify a point penalty or DQ.

It is not the same as an illegal knee either officially nor in basic rational thought. An illegal knee harms the other fighter and may prevent them from continuing. It is embarrassing to conflate the two things.

In the history of MMA, nobody has ever been automatically DQd for a first fence grab. Ever.

So both the rulebook and precedent emphatically refute your argument.

Now, you can make intellectually dishonest arguments like another poster did on this topic, and try to claim multiple fence grabs even though it is a single incident. Or you can rely on the technicality that, yes, theoretically refs have very broad discretion. But this is meaningless in practice, where referees are expected to maintain certain basic standards of officiating.

Or you can demonstrate more self-respect than that poster did, just admit that you are mistaken about this and apologize for making the thread.

 

[maximus__]

If desperately climbing up the fence is not enough proof the guy was incapable of intelligently defending himself to justify the ref stoppage, doesn't the guy attacking the ref after the stoppage prove it was the right call? If someone can't tell the difference between Jason Herzog and Derrick Lewis, there is no way they were capable of intelligently defending themselves against Derrick Lewis.

Except he immediately realised it was Herzog and stopped...

 

[HeffDoesWant]

One issue is that Lewis was pushing Tailson into the fence, and there is literally no way Tailson could have used his hands to push against the fence without it being considered a fence grab.

To stoppage was fine, eating big shots with no head defence isn't intelligent defence.

My rule change suggestion is people should be allowed to grab the fence with their toes. Its fucking ridiculous to treat toes like fingers. I can't think of a single time that this did anything besides stop someone pushing against the fence.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Teh roolz only allow for a 1 point deduction for the foul & they have to be restarted standing in teh center.

I agree though that teh rool needz an upgrade. I'd rather see a point loss & get put right back on his stomach with beast in side control.

 

[CatchtheseHands]

The rules explicitly lay out what a referee can do in the event of a foul. Disqualify, deduct points, reset position. Nowhere does it differentiate fouls for different scenarios. Nowhere does it say a foul can be punished in any other way.

So it’s really whether an immediate disqualification is warranted without a warning issued for a fence grab in a wild moment of the fight. I’d say no, but that’s the real discussion.

There's always going to be some kind of controversy when it comes to calls like this. Even if he deducted a point instead or called a DQ people would have a problem with those calls too, whether it be DQ was too harsh or it should have been a DQ if he took a point instead and BB ended up getting finished later in the fight or lost the remaining 4 rounds. But yea there are rules in regarding how a ref can call a fight but it's also discretionary too. Texeira was taking damage on the bottom and on his way up climbing the fence. He wasn't intelligently defending himself while holding the fence with his back turned so the ref took it as he was done or very close to being done and saved him.

How is his grabbing the fence any different to any other fighter grabbing it? They are all grabbing it to get up or avoid being taken down to remain in the best position for them to not be finished. I never said reset. I said let that sequence play out and when there is a break in the action deduct a point.

He keeps doing it to survive multiple sequences, then you DQ him like every other foul in MMA. We see it all the time with nut shots and eyepokes to milk recovery time or fighters pretend they got hit low. Why is it suddenly so different because he got dropped 10 seconds earlier? He did what he was meant to and initially intelligently defended himself in 2 separate dequences prior to the fence grabs. All that happened was that he got dropped and Lewis landed some follow up shots. Sure Lewis Ko's people, but at no point did he really have Texeira hurt. It wasn't a TKO stoppage in the slightest and that's what I have an issue with.

There have been less than 10 points deducted for fence grabs within the UFC this decade. These aren't even the most blatant fence grabs we have seen to change the outcome of the fight in MMA. (See some below)
Lewis still had to actually finish him to win the fight. He missed half his shots until he was grabbing the cage. Just let the fight play out and penalize him after.

Idk about it not being close to a TKO stoppage and that he wasn't hurt. He was eating a lot of unanswered shots on the bottom and wasn't defending himself at all while standing and holding the fence to presumably stay standing. We've seen fighters on the bottom take less damage than Texeira did and still have the fight be called..

 

[Alpha_T83]

You are objectively wrong. The rules explicitly state that a fence grab that has a 'substantial effect' on the fight will incur a 1-point penalty. This makes it different from other fouls, which do not specify a point penalty or DQ.

It is not the same as an illegal knee either officially nor in basic rational thought. An illegal knee harms the other fighter and may prevent them from continuing. It is embarrassing to conflate the two things.

In the history of MMA, nobody has ever been automatically DQd for a first fence grab. Ever.

So both the rulebook and precedent emphatically refute your argument.

Now, you can make intellectually dishonest arguments like another poster did on this topic, and try to claim multiple fence grabs even though it is a single incident. Or you can rely on the technicality that, yes, theoretically refs have very broad discretion. But this is meaningless in practice, where referees are expected to maintain certain basic standards of officiating.

Or you can demonstrate more self-respect than that poster did, just admit that you are mistaken about this and apologize for making the thread.

Nope. You're objectively wrong. Read the rules of MMA fully. This clause trumps what you're referencing:

If the referee feels that a fighter has conducted themselves in an unsportsmanlike manner, they may stop the action of the fight to deduct points or stop the bout to disqualify the fighter.

https://www.abcboxing.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/unified-mma-rules-rev-july-2024.pdf

Referees can disqualify fighters at any time for any rules violation, if they feel it was egregious enough.

 

[Alpha_T83]

Teh roolz only allow for a 1 point deduction for the foul & they have to be restarted standing in teh center.

I agree though that teh rool needz an upgrade. I'd rather see a point loss & get put right back on his stomach with beast in side control.

The rules allow for a ref to disqualify a fighter for any rules violation, if they feel it was egregious enough. There's a catch-all clause in the rules for this:

https://www.abcboxing.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/unified-mma-rules-rev-july-2024.pdf

If the referee feels that a fighter has conducted themselves in an unsportsmanlike manner, they may stop the action of the fight to deduct points or stop the bout to disqualify the fighter.

 

[Howard Moon]

"If you are not cheating, you are not trying mentality is a plague."

Yup. That a rasslin' cheater's slogan that you were supposed to boo became the mantra for MMA fighters is pretty fucked up.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

The rules allow for a ref to disqualify a fighter for any rules violation, if they feel it was egregious enough. There's a catch-all clause in the rules for this:

https://www.abcboxing.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/unified-mma-rules-rev-july-2024.pdf

I actually made this point... & copied that same quote from teh roolz in another thread, but changed my understanding of teh roolz after it was pointed out to me that a purposeful foul is not considered "unsportsmanlike conduct." That's for stuff like spitting on someone & stuff like that.

Foulz have 2 different criteria for the ref to go by... un-intentional, & intentional. There is not a 3rd level for them where they escalate a foul to "unsportsmanlike conduct." The most they can call it is "intentional" & the worse that can happen is a single point deduction per incident.

Certainly it is not written that climbing teh fence to stop from being GnPed should result in teh TKO that a ref anticipates would've happened otherwise. A TKO is not supposed to be called when teh victim is improving position.

Another bad one is holding teh fence to stop a TD, or using it to escape from a submission. You don't just award teh submission if someone does that. I'd like to see people placed back on teh ground where they were before committing the foul. They used to do that, but it's been yearz since I've seen that in teh UFC.

I feel you that it should be different for something like this. Teh rool makerz gather every July for review... so maybe with this fresh in their mindz, they will make an amendment.

 

[Mittens]

I feel you that it should be different for something like this. Teh rool makerz gather every July for review... so maybe with this fresh in their mindz, they will make an amendment.

Better not hold your breath. The foolmakers are out of touch and inept - even if they want to do something sensible, it will likely take 17 years to go thru and then three times the time until all states bother to adopt the revised rules. Only international football seems to move at more glacial pace on needed rules revisions than the "unified" (heehe) ruleset based MMA.

So lets just be thankful Herzog was able to think fo himself, this time, and let the hardcases froth at the mouth about it being a "bad stoppage"

 

[Dr Fong]

Nope. You're objectively wrong. Read the rules of MMA fully. This clause trumps what you're referencing:

https://www.abcboxing.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/unified-mma-rules-rev-july-2024.pdf

Referees can disqualify fighters at any time for any rules violation, if they feel it was egregious enough.

You chose intellectual dishonesty. How very sad.

 

[Alpha_T83]

You chose intellectual dishonesty. How very sad.

Shut the fuck up. I'm 100% right and you can't even refute the argument and you know it.

Thanks for admitting defeat in the argument by literally not responding to what I said at all in any meanigful way.

 

[maximus__]

There's always going to be some kind of controversy when it comes to calls like this. Even if he deducted a point instead or called a DQ people would have a problem with those calls too, whether it be DQ was too harsh or it should have been a DQ if he took a point instead and BB ended up getting finished later in the fight or lost the remaining 4 rounds. But yea there are rules in regarding how a ref can call a fight but it's also discretionary too. Texeira was taking damage on the bottom and on his way up climbing the fence. He wasn't intelligently defending himself while holding the fence with his back turned so the ref took it as he was done or very close to being done and saved him.



Idk about it not being close to a TKO stoppage and that he wasn't hurt. He was eating a lot of unanswered shots on the bottom and wasn't defending himself at all while standing and holding the fence to presumably stay standing. We've seen fighters on the bottom take less damage than Texeira did and still have the fight be called..

Even Blackbeast said he was missing most of his shots and hitting his own legs. He took 3 clean shots as he pulled himself up the cage. They didn't rock him and he was able to stand(whilst using the cage). It's not a TKO and shouldn't be called as such.

They stopped the fight for Lewis being behind his opponent who was facing the cage. That's it. He was too close to continue hitting him and if space was created to continue striking (like when the ref did) he immediately turned. That's not a TKO in any other fight.

It's MMA, you have to let that run until he either drops or stops defending himself and covers up. The fight should never be stopped if someone gets to their feet from the ground whilst getting hit. He wasn't even slightly wobbled.

It's clear he is still doing what he should to stay in the fight, admittedly whilst committing the most minor infraction (cage grabs) against the rules.

 

[Alpha_T83]

Even Blackbeast said he was missing most of his shots and hitting his own legs. He took 3 clean shots as he pulled himself up the cage. They didn't rock him and he was able to stand(whilst using the cage). It's not a TKO and shouldn't be called as such.

They stopped the fight for Lewis being behind his opponent who was facing the cage. That's it. He was too close to continue hitting him and if space was created to continue striking (like when the ref did) he immediately turned. That's not a TKO in any other fight.

It's MMA, you have to let that run until he either drops or stops defending himself and covers up. The fight should never be stopped if someone gets to their feet from the ground whilst getting hit. He wasn't even slightly wobbled.

It's clear he is still doing what he should to stay in the fight, admittedly whilst committing the most minor infraction (cage grabs) against the rules.

To be fair, MMA needs a turtling rule.

Shots to the neck/back of the head should be legal if you turn your back to an opponent. Otherwise, any time a fighter does what Tallison did, the fight needs to be stopped.

It's completely unacceptable to turn your back to a fighter, so he can't legally/easily hit you, and then grab the fence and climb up like this. The rules should FORCE Tallison to face towards Black Beast and try to stand up and eat the shots. Otherwise the fight should be stopped.

100% Tallison should not have been allowed to survive this position with what he did.

 

[snugglecakes]

clearly he was tapping out to strikes against the cage

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

multiple fence grabs? He grabbed it once to pull himself up. Multiple makes it seem like the fight went on longer than it did and Texeira was doing it the whole fight.

 

[TryggeTryggvar]

Agreed with bad stoppage for the fans, but the rules need to take priority.

I personally agree with removing fence grabs as being illegal entirely. As long as we don't also allow head stomps, it's not that much of an issue. The only real problem I see is Usman-style wall & stall, where he was the master of holding people against the fence by grabbing the cage behind them.

Shouldnt enforcing the rules for grabbing the fence have been a warning and maybe a point deduction tho? Thats how its always been, and we have seen some really bad fence grabbing, much worse than this, where they got off with 0 consequences.

Also I didnt mean grabbing the fence should be legal, that would lead to more problems than it solves.

 

[Alpha_T83]

Shouldnt enforcing the rules for grabbing the fence have been a warning and maybe a point deduction tho? Thats how its always been, and we have seen some really bad fence grabbing, much worse than this, where they got off with 0 consequences.

Also I didnt mean grabbing the fence should be legal, that would lead to more problems than it solves.

The problem is this is by far the most egregious fence grab I've seen. You're comparing apples to oranges when you're talking about holding the fence to prevent a takedown or grabbing the fence to stand up from a grappling position.

Let's assume for a second the fight wasn't stopped, and Tallison was allowed to continue. Tallison was seconds away from being TKO'd. If he hadn't grabbed the fence to stand up, I think he was done. That means Tallison's multiple fence grabs took away a potential TKO from Lewis. That's far more egregious than any other fence grab you can reference.

There's really no precedent that I know of to compare this to. That's why I think this is egregious enough to deserve a DQ. I'm glad the fight was stopped.

As others have said, turning your back to your opponent and grabbing the fence to stand up is not legally, intelligently defending yourself. That deserves the fight being stopped.