Mistrust of Science - Evolution vs Creationism in the classroom

[Sano]

i can see you not finding it convincing but going from that to being rude and mocking is too far, and beneath the dignity of any decent person.

you also ought to have some humility about the topic in my opinion, i believe you have never had any kind of direct experience with God and so for you there is no reason to believe it. but your lack of experience does not make you right.

i think you would believe for certain if yo had half the experience with God that some people do but i'm not mocking you just because you haven't.

People have had personal experiences with all kinds of gods, ghosts, spirits, aliens, mythical creatures and more since the beginning of time. There is no way for an outsider to measure the veracity and the human mind is a powerful thing. Testimony isnt compelling evidence.

I might think differently if I had had any personal experiences yes, but that wouldnt mean that I was right, nor that that would be proof for the biblical god.

 

[evansusmc2]

tell me yours so i am more informed. what experience did you have with God that you now think did not happen?

Ooohh no, this isn’t a therapy session. I don’t care if you aren’t gonna take my word for my experience/s.

 

[terrapin]

People have had personal experiences with all kinds of gods, ghosts, spirits, aliens, mythical creatures and more since the beginning of time. There is no way for an outsider to measure the veracity and the human mind is a powerful thing. Testimony isnt compelling evidence.

I might think differently if I had had any personal experiences yes, but that wouldnt mean that I was right, nor that that would be proof for the biblical god.

i can agree with that to some degree. my point is mocking it is wrong and that if you had experience you would feel different and that your lack of expedience is not in itself any kind of proof either.

 

[terrapin]

Ooohh no, this isn’t a therapy session. I don’t care if you aren’t gonna take my word for my experience/s.

im dong my best here to respect you. i am saying if you want to discuss it further i am willing and if you don't that is ok too.

 

[evansusmc2]

And they are all wrong. But its takes study to understand that.

EVERY religion has its own “study”. And you are no one to claim your’s is the “right one” and all others are “wrong”. Go to India or Egypt and spout that nonsense and see how it goes for you.

 

[terrapin]

Wait a minute, how do you know your experience is with god and not an issue that neuroscience can analyze?

much experience with God is so complete and so radical that it not only has the profound subjective components that i find compelling but also simultaneously leaves a direct imprint of various kinds on the physical environment.

granted this is a lot more rare and not producible at will by anyone but it does happen. it is frustrating because some people really do know God exists while others do not and since these kinds of things are rare and not producible at will they elude laboratory experiments.

 

[helltoupee]

The claim from Carl Jung that consciousness seems to exist outside of time and space seems to be the truth, or at least I can't find any faults in it. That's probably why we still have such a hard time trying to grasp it from a materialistic viewpoint. The idea that consciousness is just a byproduct of the brain's processes seem like nonsense to me. How does it create this self-awareness, which is more often self-defeating than not, and why is it necessary?

Until we can actually define how consciousness works, we will never arrive at the truth, imho.

What does it actually mean to 'consciously' do something? Think about the act of holding a verbal conversation with someone - do you consciously stop and take your time to formulate everything you want to say? Or does it all just kind of spill out on the fly so to speak? If I'm not actively controlling my own thoughts, who is?

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

much experience with God is so complete and so radical that it not only has the profound subjective components that i find compelling but also simultaneously leaves a direct imprint of various kinds on the physical environment.

granted this is a lot more rare and not producible at will by anyone but it does happen. it is frustrating because some people really do know God exists while others do not and since these kinds of things are rare and not producible at will they elude laboratory experiments.

Leaves imprints on the physical environment? That can be measured, can you elaborate on that please.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

Until we can actually define how consciousness works, we will never arrive at the truth, imho.

What does it actually mean to 'consciously' do something? Think about the act of holding a verbal conversation with someone - do you consciously stop and take your time to formulate everything you want to say? Or does it all just kind of spill out on the fly so to speak? If I'm not actively controlling my own thoughts, who is?

Sounds just like a really advanced neuron based control system

 

[terrapin]

Leaves imprints on the physical environment? That can be measured, can you elaborate on that please.

objects move or healing miracles happen in concert with seeing blinding white light and the person feeling burning sensations. things like that i admit are rare-- but they do happen.

i also find much of the subjective experience and predictable transformation it produces compelling on its own.

 

[TheComebackKid]

EVERY religion has its own “study”. And you are no one to claim your’s is the “right one” and all others are “wrong”. Go to India or Egypt and spout that nonsense and see how it goes for you.

You don't have to agree with me. But until you study you really are in no position to agree or disagree.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

objects move or healing miracles happen in concert with seeing blinding white light and the person feeling burning sensations. things like that i admit are rare-- but they do happen.

i also find much of the subjective experience and predictable transformation it produces compelling on its own.

From what I've read that sounds like temporal lobe epilepsy. The flash of light and other phenomenon like voices, falling to the ground are evidence of a seizure.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/brain-religion.htm

Neuroscientists have been able to recreate some of these emotions-phenomenon by stimulating certain lobes of the brain. This is why a lot of us are skeptical of these experiences as coming from the supernatural. The causes could be genetic, a chemical imbalance, infections etc.

 

[terrapin]

From what I've read that sounds like temporal lobe epilepsy. The flash of light and other phenomenon like voices, falling to the ground are evidence of a seizure.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/brain-religion.htm

Neuroscientists have been able to recreate some of these emotions-phenomenon by stimulating certain lobes of the brain. This is why a lot of us are skeptical of these experiences as coming from the supernatural. The causes could be genetic, a chemical imbalance, infections etc.

If you have examples of 3 or 4 people seeing that while terminal cancer gets healed that would be comparible.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

If you have examples of 3 or 4 people seeing that while terminal cancer gets healed that would be comparible.

The post you're responding to is a perfect example of how @Voodoo_Child906 is a troll. Voodoo_child906 rejects 'god of the gaps' arguments, but employs the same logic to justify racial discrimination against whites. Just as some theists will see some unexplained phenomenon in nature and conclude it's evidence of God, @Voodoo_Child906 looks at racial disparities and concludes they're evidence of racial discrimination:

Data??? Please don't speak of data when you were the one asking for racist advertisements from the 60s and comparative analysis of resumes for specific positions as evidence of discrimination, that was beyond ridiculous. The only data that is available is employment statistics and it was these statistics from institutions like the Craft Unions, Alabama State Troopers and United Steel workers that convinced Congress to act in 72 and the SCOTUS to uphold the EEOC lawsuits.

And once again, why do you keep talking about fractions of a percent? AA remedies were not placed on all of America. They were ordered on organizations that were statistically out of compliance with the CRA and could not justify it. If an organization had minority representation in reasonable relation to their presence in the qualified available workforce then they did not have to implement AA policies.



Because being black is not prima facie evidence of being a lawbreaker unlike an institutions *documented record* in hiring preference.



Law enforcement does have the authority to enforce compliance of federal laws like the CRA and I have no idea why you have an issue with that. If talent is at the root of the hiring preferences then the organization should have no issue demonstrating this.

 

[helltoupee]

From what I've read that sounds like temporal lobe epilepsy. The flash of light and other phenomenon like voices, falling to the ground are evidence of a seizure.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/brain-religion.htm

Neuroscientists have been able to recreate some of these emotions-phenomenon by stimulating certain lobes of the brain. This is why a lot of us are skeptical of these experiences as coming from the supernatural. The causes could be genetic, a chemical imbalance, infections etc.

Or it could it not be the release of some type of chemical, like DMT?

I read a book a very long time ago by a New Mexico scientist who injected people with heroic amounts of dmt - far beyond what a normal user would take. From what I remember, most of the volunteers described being transported to some kind of space ship, whereby the entities 'knew' they were coming, and said they had been waiting for them. That struck me as very odd - subjective psychedelic experiences typically vary dramatically, depending on the mental state of the user. This was different. Everyone who participated described their experience as 'more real than real'. Some of them were experienced psychedelic users, who were already very familiar with hallucinations and the effects of psychedelics. This was different. At least when administered intravenously and at insanely high doses. At more moderate doses, mystical experiences would happen similar to Persinger's God Helmet. At lower doses, it's more of ramped up LSD experience.

The interesting thing is that at the conclusion of the study, the doctor proposed that DMT could possibly be excreted by the pineal gland, as it is present endogenously. Everything from mystical experiences with "god", to alien abduction, to near death experiences, could be explained by the brain's release of said substance. The eery part is how convincing the hallucinations actually were. The participants absolutely insisted that what they experienced was a persistent, physical reality and it was not filled with clowns and acrobats - they seemed to be in a technologically advanced society of aliens or something. The doctor tried his hardest to attempt to explain away the fact that his patients were having identical experiences, as they had no contact with each other, but he never ultimately can explain it.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

If you have examples of 3 or 4 people seeing that while terminal cancer gets healed that would be comparible.

Are these cases documented? I'd like to hear more about them.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

Or it could it not be the release of some type of chemical, like DMT?

I read a book a very long time ago by a New Mexico scientist who injected people with heroic amounts of dmt - far beyond what a normal user would take. From what I remember, most of the volunteers described being transported to some kind of space ship, whereby the entities 'knew' they were coming, and said they had been waiting for them. That struck me as very odd - subjective psychedelic experiences typically vary dramatically, depending on the mental state of the user. This was different. Everyone who participated described their experience as 'more real than real'. Some of them were experienced psychedelic users, who were already very familiar with hallucinations and the effects of psychedelics. This was different. At least when administered intravenously and at insanely high doses. At more moderate doses, mystical experiences would happen similar to Persinger's God Helmet. At lower doses, it's more of ramped up LSD experience.

The interesting thing is that at the conclusion of the study, the doctor proposed that DMT could possibly be excreted by the pineal gland, as it is present endogenously. Everything from mystical experiences with "god", to alien abduction, to near death experiences, could be explained by the brain's release of said substance. The eery part is how convincing the hallucinations actually were. The participants absolutely insisted that what they experienced was a persistent, physical reality and it was not filled with clowns and acrobats - they seemed to be in a technologically advanced society of aliens or something. The doctor tried his hardest to attempt to explain away the fact that his patients were having identical experiences, as they had no contact with each other, but he never ultimately can explain it.

Could very well be, even common compounds like serotonin and dopamine have been seen shown to have religious experiences. Just the practice of meditation has shown numerous parallel effects like increased focus and attention, planning skills, the ability to project into the future, and the ability to construct complex arguments.

Also, both prayer and meditation correlate with a decreased activity in the parietal lobes, which are responsible for processing temporal and spatial orientation.

 

[terrapin]

Are these cases documented? I'd like to hear more about them.

they are not and i think you know that. this is why the phenomenon is so elusive. i am surrounded by people who are deeply dedicated to the contemplative Christian path and it is morel likely to happen with these types of people but even in that community something like that is extremely rare but it does happen once in a while.

it is sometimes a bit frustrating to see a debate go on about weather there this God or not when i know there is God and have directly experienced it.

 

[terrapin]

Or it could it not be the release of some type of chemical, like DMT?

I read a book a very long time ago by a New Mexico scientist who injected people with heroic amounts of dmt - far beyond what a normal user would take. From what I remember, most of the volunteers described being transported to some kind of space ship, whereby the entities 'knew' they were coming, and said they had been waiting for them. That struck me as very odd - subjective psychedelic experiences typically vary dramatically, depending on the mental state of the user. This was different. Everyone who participated described their experience as 'more real than real'. Some of them were experienced psychedelic users, who were already very familiar with hallucinations and the effects of psychedelics. This was different. At least when administered intravenously and at insanely high doses. At more moderate doses, mystical experiences would happen similar to Persinger's God Helmet. At lower doses, it's more of ramped up LSD experience.

The interesting thing is that at the conclusion of the study, the doctor proposed that DMT could possibly be excreted by the pineal gland, as it is present endogenously. Everything from mystical experiences with "god", to alien abduction, to near death experiences, could be explained by the brain's release of said substance. The eery part is how convincing the hallucinations actually were. The participants absolutely insisted that what they experienced was a persistent, physical reality and it was not filled with clowns and acrobats - they seemed to be in a technologically advanced society of aliens or something. The doctor tried his hardest to attempt to explain away the fact that his patients were having identical experiences, as they had no contact with each other, but he never ultimately can explain it.

i think the study of mysticism from well developed traditions could help make better distinctions in the study of this phenomenon regarding DMT and other chemicals. mystical traditions have been making very subtle distinctions between many different types of mystical phenomenon for thousands of years.

we make distinctions between mystical experiences that are natural productions of the mind, caused by a nefarious force and those caused by God or one of God's agents. no one claims to be able to tell with 100% certainty but there is a deep body of wisdom that i think could be helpful in these areas.

i spend about 4 hours a day in meditation and have had a number of mystical experiences that i believe are completely natural phenomenon, made up by my mind, but that seemed completely real to me while experiencing them... i am 100% convinced that these are caused by some kind of chemical release in the brain or body.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

they are not and i think you know that. this is why the phenomenon is so elusive. i am surrounded by people who are deeply dedicated to the contemplative Christian path and it is morel likely to happen with these types of people but even in that community something like that is extremely rare but it does happen once in a while.

it is sometimes a bit frustrating to see a debate go on about weather there this God or not when i know there is God and have directly experienced it.

I have no doubt that you have experienced something you believe is spiritual, trying to present evidence for a spiritual experience on an internet discussion forum full of skeptics is obviously not going to be easy. If you find anything else let me know.