Mediocre brown belts?

[J Sho]

On a related note, does anyone know exactly WHY BJ fought a weight class above his normal weight? It sounds cool, and all that, but...was there a reason for it? Political, for teammates or something? Or did he just come in a little heavy and miss weight?

Anyone able to shed some light on this?

Take care,

Oli

could be either i guess, i'm not sure he was a natural pena, maybe he didn't fancy the cut. Equally, Rodrigo antonio at pena from NU was very good as well (one of those guys most people won't have heard of), he went on to take 4 gold, 2 silver and 2 bronze at black belt at the Copa Do Mundo from 2002 - 2007.

NU also had had Leo Santos and Gustavo Dantas at Pena in 1998 (albeit i'm not sure what they did in 99, maybe BJ figured it would be too crowded.

Diniz (who BJ beat in 2000) had won the Brasilieros and Pan Ams already that year (1999) and then the Mundials at brown.

 

[Cash Bill 52]

Hmmm...

I know blue belts that give world famous black belts a hard time. I was feeling bad when a blue belt tapped me out in a "specific training" drill. He started on my back with hooks.

He went on to tap a black belt as well. I felt better. (just a little)

At our school it's ok. We all talked about it afterwards. My buddy, Roy Boughton Roy Boughton MMA Stats, Pictures, News, Videos, Biography, and More - Sherdog.com is a blue belt stud. He is starting his MMA career before his bjj tournament career. All four of his MMA victories ended in submission. The last guy he beat won a black belt no gi tournament.

We grow them a little differently here...

 

[knoxpk]

I only read the 1st page of the thread. But I MAY be able to see where a "world class" blue belt (if there is such a thing) may pose a problem to what some might call an "average" or non competetive brown belt.

The reason is I THINK that the brown belt may be awarded rank based on a thorough understanding and demonstrated ability with a wide range of techniques.

That said the blue belt may have a much narrower range of techniques but may be very high level with the techniques they do know.

After having said all of that I would find it hard to believe that someone with maybe 2 years of training can defeat someone with 6 years of training on a regular basis. It has and does happen in wrestling and I am sure Judo I dont see why BJJ would be different.

But again, experience in a given art/sport generally equals success versus those with less experience.

 

[J Sho]

this thread is just another example of how the Belt System in BJJ tries to be all things to all people and has to cater for professional athletes to once a week hobbyists and everything in between. layer on top of that the fact the promotion system is a broadly arbitrary process decided on the whim of a given instructor and is it any wonder that two people with the same belt may be vastly different in terms of ability and knowledge.

BJJ is seemingly caught in between a). the TMAish style arts that have clear (primarily) knowledge based promotion frameworks where you compete with other people at the same grade and b). the arts that are almost purely performance focussed/based with no belt systems (sambo, wrestling, nogi) where you rise to the level of competition your ability permits.

 

[mtruitt76]

Yes it's ridiculous.

Bottomline is a brownbelt will beat all bluebelts with ease. If he doesn't. He's either sick, no stamina left, not a brownbelt or the bluebelt is not a bluebelt, or the weighdiffrence is huge.

Completely wrong. Belts do not come with magical powers that give you mastery of all those with rank beneath you. A blue from a competition focused school can beat a brown from a non competition focused school. This doesn't make the brown belt undeserving of their rank and it doesn't indicate that the blue should have a higher rank. It is merely representative of a difference in values and focus.

Some schools focus almost exclusively on competition. Other schools consider competition a small part of BJJ. Heck Rickson recently stated that competition is only 30% of BJJ. Which school do you think would do better in competition a school where competition is only 30% of BJJ or one where competition is pretty much 100% of BJJ?

 

[MasonTJJ]

Based on my (admittedly limited) experience with international-level competition players at any level, I'd still say I see the brown belt totally crushing the blue belts. While these guys may be spectacular athletes, they just don't have the knowledge base to keep up with someone who has 6, 7, 8, 9 years' skin in the game.

When I see blue belts who steamroll competition in local tournaments get tooled by a guy with less than a year @ purple, it's a pretty big disconnect to think of a brown belt losing in this scenario.

 

[Balto]

Based on my (admittedly limited) experience with international-level competition players at any level, I'd still say I see the brown belt totally crushing the blue belts. While these guys may be spectacular athletes, they just don't have the knowledge base to keep up with someone who has 6, 7, 8, 9 years' skin in the game.

When I see blue belts who steamroll competition in local tournaments get tooled by a guy with less than a year @ purple, it's a pretty big disconnect to think of a brown belt losing in this scenario.

Again you're missing the point. You're assuming that blue belts don't have that much experience.

I'm a blue belt with six years of skin in the game. That's not that atypical either.

I know some brown belts who have ten or fifteen years experience, and I know some brown belts who have like five years experience. Likewise a blue belt could have like one year experience or seven years experience. There is a pretty wide range depending on promotional philosophy, so these things definitely overlap to a pretty large degree.

You guys think it goes:
White -----
Blue *****-------
Purple**********------
Brown*************** -------
Black**********************-------

When really it goes:
White --------
Blue****---------
Purple******---------
Brown*********--------
Black ************-----------

The same absolute skill level can usually be ranked about two or three different ways depending on how the instructor approaches promotions.

 

[Rod1]

He would not necesarily win because probably the blue belt division is owned by a ex-wrestler or ex-judoka who just jumped wagons isn't?

Im a white belt in BJJ and im pretty sure i could win under tournament rules against some brown belts. They still run through me when doing BJJ, because my sub game still sucks and because i always go for the guard because im trying to improve that game.

 

[xcydal]

this thread is just another example of how the Belt System in BJJ tries to be all things to all people and has to cater for professional athletes to once a week hobbyists and everything in between. layer on top of that the fact the promotion system is a broadly arbitrary process decided on the whim of a given instructor and is it any wonder that two people with the same belt may be vastly different in terms of ability and knowledge.

BJJ is seemingly caught in between a). the TMAish style arts that have clear (primarily) knowledge based promotion frameworks where you compete with other people at the same grade and b). the arts that are almost purely performance focussed/based with no belt systems (sambo, wrestling, nogi) where you rise to the level of competition your ability permits.

Exactly, the belt system doesn't work, a lot of times. I saw a blue belt walk through the open elite class at a tourney a few weeks ago like it was nothing, he was a judoka convert (european national champ), he soundly beat a few purples and a brown. When I only have around 3 years of bjj experience, my 16 years of wrestling coupled with those years changes things, a lot. If you've ever grappled with a college wrestler with more than a couple years of bjj, you know exactly what I mean.

 

[Fedorzilla]

We had a brown belt who we never heard of from a town an hour away come to one of our open mats. He was promoted to brown by a Machado black belt in Michigan. He was a SUPER nice guy, but was tapped repeatedly by our white and blue belts. He was probably in his mid 40's, and had a cold.

This black belt has given a couple questionable belts away, but I'm not in a position to judge a black belt.

I hate to say, but a school across town had a guy who was a purple a few months back. Guy leaves town and comes back 5 days later with a brown. He was NOT purple belt quality to begin with. Complete bullshido.

 

[nefti]

Exactly, the belt system doesn't work, a lot of times. I saw a blue belt walk through the open elite class at a tourney a few weeks ago like it was nothing, he was a judoka convert (european national champ), he soundly beat a few purples and a brown. When I only have around 3 years of bjj experience, my 16 years of wrestling coupled with those years changes things, a lot. If you've ever grappled with a college wrestler with more than a couple years of bjj, you know exactly what I mean.

the belt system does work. A European national champ in judo should START at blue and if he trains smart should be promoted quickly. Same with you. Most of the BJJ population have no prior grappling training.

 

[J Sho]

i think only medicore browns and above should be allowed to post on this thread

 

[nefti]

since there are stories about phenoms i will also tell you guys a story. My friend placed in the Pan ams at blue belt a few years ago, when he came to my gym to train he got worked (i mean destroyed) by a 48 year old brown belt, 2 40 year old brown belts, and a black belt in his mid 40's. The only one of the 4 with any kind of special atheletic ability was the 48 year old brown belt (who by this time was basically on one leg due to years of competitive tkd training). The black belt is a university professor and the two brown belts in their 40's run gyms but have no exeptional physical talents.

the thing is that you guys are talking about exceptions as if it's the rule. Exceptions are exceptions and nothing more. A rarity that's what makes them exceptional.

 

[Calibur]

the thing is that you guys are talking about exceptions as if it's the rule. Exceptions are exceptions and nothing more. A rarity that's what makes them exceptional.

I guess it depends on people's experiences. There are 3 white belts that come to my mind. Judo back grounds of various weights. These guys are immovable, and tap purples and browns all the time. You take off the gi and they are actually better, especially when toe holds get involved.

They give me a really hard time, but I see enough of these guys that they can't be exceptions. They are part of BJJ. Things aren't as cut and dry as everyone wants it to be.

Lower belts do beat higher belts, and it is NOT strange.

 

[nefti]

I guess it depends on people's experiences. There are 3 white belts that come to my mind. Judo back grounds of various weights. These guys are immovable, and tap purples and browns all the time. You take off the gi and they are actually better, especially when toe holds get involved.

They give me a really hard time, but I see enough of these guys that they can't be exceptions. They are part of BJJ. Things aren't as cut and dry as everyone wants it to be.

Lower belts do beat higher belts, and it is NOT strange.

It's not strange but it's not the norm either. Actually ryan hall was hailed because he was beating black belts as a blue belt. If he wasn't special he wouldn't have gotten all that attention.

 

[Calibur]

If he wasn't special he wouldn't have gotten all that attention.

If he didn't have Lloyd Irvin's hype machine he wouldn't have gotten attention.

 

[Rod1]

since there are stories about phenoms i will also tell you guys a story. My friend placed in the Pan ams at blue belt a few years ago, when he came to my gym to train he got worked (i mean destroyed) by a 48 year old brown belt, 2 40 year old brown belts, and a black belt in his mid 40's. The only one of the 4 with any kind of special atheletic ability was the 48 year old brown belt (who by this time was basically on one leg due to years of competitive tkd training). The black belt is a university professor and the two brown belts in their 40's run gyms but have no exeptional physical talents.

the thing is that you guys are talking about exceptions as if it's the rule. Exceptions are exceptions and nothing more. A rarity that's what makes them exceptional.

Its not a rarity, specially as cross training moves in, former newaza judokas have good games, former wrestlers have great control, and they are given white and blue belts when they start BJJ.

As pointed out, one can be succesful with a "shallow" game but perfected to oblivion, in fact you see black belts winning world championships with just the basics, but if you want to rank the belt system on competitive ability, then they should be brown isn't?

This happens in judo too, to be a black belt you must know the whole 67 throws, even though that won't make you a good competitive judoka.

In the end it boils down to

Belt system denotes competitive prowess or does it denotes knowledge and mastery of the art?

If the former myself and a lot of other judokas and wrestlers would had to start higher, even thought we are just playing the rules and getting to score on control alone, or we keep using the same move over and over. I still consider my old judo coach as the hardest groundfighter i have ever sparred with, but he has never done BJJ he would be a white isn't?

 

[nefti]

If he didn't have Lloyd Irvin's hype machine he wouldn't have gotten attention.

beating barret yoshida and tapping gordinho would have gotten him attention in the educated bjj community, lloyd irvin or not.

 

[Calibur]

Oh, BTW. Caol Uno started training in the gi.

He is a white belt. Thoughts?

 

[crocoppertones]

if you ARE a brown belt, who seems to be having trouble placing in local competitions, I'm sure it would only be a learning experience. SOMEONE has to be that brown belt who doesn't place. Doesn't put them back to blue belt level


kinda a stretch TS