Lebron only faced that Warriors team twice out of those 8 years. Also, that same team nearly lost, and probably should have lost, to James Harden and Chris Paul. But ask yourself if Jordan ever played with a top 5 and top 10 player at the same time? Did Jordan ever play with two top 15 players at the same time or a guy who could go and get 40 in the finals multiple times? It's hard to complain about his level of competition when he himself was on handpicked super teams.
Great post! I appreciate you taking the time to put this together.
Cleveland didn't give Lebron any help in his first go round. He did what he needed to do. I don't fault him for that. I only fault him for playing like a bitch against the Mavs. If Lebron had been drafted into a quality organization like the Bulls with a hall of fame coach & a hall of fame sidekick, things might have gone differently. Pure speculation, I know, but valid imo. & because Jordan played with Pippen he didn't have to carry as large a burden. Ball handling wise, defensively etc. I think Lebron has had to carry more of a load in his career.
Also, Jordan had a much tougher conference to get through to even make the finals. What would Lebron's ring count be if he played in a legitimate conference?
There's no denying that the East was weak for the majority of Lebron's string of finals appearances, but I don't remember the conference being as tough as you do during Jordan's time. Once the Pistons & Celtics faded, I considered it a foregone conclusion. Sure the Knicks & Pacers had solid teams, but did we really consider them a threat?
That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is like this:
Peak stat lines:
Jordan:
1986-87: 37.1ppg / 5.2rbs / 4.6asts / 2.9 stls / 1.5blks / 48% fg / 56% TS
1987-88: 35.0ppg / 5.5rbs / 5.9asts / 3.2 stls / 1.2 blks / 53% fg / 60% TS
1988-89: 32.5ppg / 8.0rbs / 8.0asts / 2.9 stls / 0.8 blks / 53% fg / 61% TS
1989-90: 33.6ppg / 6.9rbs / 6.3asts / 2.8 stls / 0.7 blks / 52% fg / 60% TS
1990-91: 31.5ppg / 6.5rbs / 5.5asts / 2.7 stls / 1.0 blks / 54% fg / 60% TS
Lebron:
2005-06: 31.4ppg / 7.0rbs / 6.6asts / 1.6 stls / 0.8 blks / 48% fg / 56% TS
2007-08: 30.0ppg / 7.9rbs / 7.0asts / 1.8 stls / 1.1 blks / 48% fg / 56% TS
2017-18: 27.5ppg / 8.6rbs / 9.1asts / 1.4 stls / 0.9 blks / 54% fg / 62% TS
2009-10: 29.7ppg / 7.3rbs / 8.6asts / 1.6 stls / 1.0 blks / 50% fg / 60% TS
2008-09: 28.4ppg / 7.6rbs / 7.2asts / 1.7 stls / 1.1 blks / 48% fg / 59% TS
One is significantly better than the other. Jordan has 4 years that are better than Lebron's best.
You left out two of Lebron's best seasons of '11-'12 & '12-'13 when he put up the rare PER seasons over 30. You can view the comparison with those basic stat lines you chose, but they don't tell the whole story.
Championships: 6 > 3
Finals MVPs: 6 > 3
League MVPs: 5 > 4
DPOYs: 1 > 0
Scoring Titles: 10 > 1
Stls Titles: 3 > 0
All Def 1st Teams: 9 > 5
NCAA Titles: 1 > 0
That's way more than an edge my friend. Lebron has more accumulative awards like All Star and All NBA selections by simply playing more games. He does have more bronze medals than Jordan...I'll give him that.
You're really gonna count NCAA titles?? LOL. Is Bron's longevity not a part of his greatness? You shouldn't include things like scoring titles, which isn't Lebron's game, if you're not going to paint the whole picture imo. Jordan played on better teams, so he has more rings & finals MVPs. & I think Bron should have won the MVP in the series they gave it to Iguodala too. His play in that series was fucking sensational.
Clutch performance is more than a single play or a last second shot. Clutch can be a moment, a stretch, a quarter, a game, or even a whole series. Lebron isn't bad when it comes to last second shot attempts. He just doesn't have the mind set to want to go take them. He is also afraid of the line in clutch time. Even still he's a good performer in clutch time just not Jordan.
Take a look at this stolen from an article I read earlier. It probably won't change your perception since "Jordan is the most clutch player ever" is permanently etched in everyone's mind, but perhaps it should:
LeBron Is More Clutch than Jordan
The statistics show one thing clearly, LeBron steps up in the clutch far more strongly than Jordan did. When facing a chance to eliminate an opponent, Jordan was 30-10, or won 75% of the time. Of the eight main statistical categories, his numbers dropped in each except for free throw percentage and turnovers. He shot 9% worse, had 1.4 fewer rebounds, 2.1 fewer assists, .8 fewer steals, and .6 fewer blocks. His only impressive improvement was having .8 fewer turnovers in such games. His scoring efficiency, assists and rebounds, and overall defense all lacked in games where he could put opponents away.
However, when facing elimination Jordan stepped up in some ways. He's 5-7 in his career in elimination games, boasting a winning percentage of only 41.6%. Facing elimination, Jordan's field goal percentage, free throw percentage, steals, and turnovers all got worse. He improved in rebounds, assists, blocks, and points. While he shot worse slightly, he did score 2.7 more points per game. His rebounds and assists improved well by 1.7 each per game. However, he missed 5.7% more free throws facing elimination and turned the ball over 1.5 more times per game.
LeBron, when facing a chance to eliminate his opponent, boasts a record of 35-10, or a 77.8% winning percentage. Of the eight main statistical categories, he improved in six. His field goal percentage, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, and points per game all improved. He shot 2.5% better overall, added 1.3 more rebounds, .6 more blocks, and 1.6 more points. His free throw percentage falls 3.3%, and he turns the ball over .4 more times per game. James simply gets a little more involved in games where he can finish his opponents, but many of his numbers only slightly increase in these situations.
When James is facing elimination he completely changes. Of the eight main statistical categories, he improves in seven. He shoots 3.5% better, adds 5.6 more rebounds per game, 1.8 more assists, .8 more steals, 1 more block per game, 1.3 fewer turnovers, and 9.2 more points. His only downside is his free throw percentage drops 7.9% when facing elimination. LeBron plays at a completely different level when facing elimination. He improves in his on-court efficiency in every way imaginable; scoring, rebounding, getting others involved, he vastly improves defensively, and he turns the ball over less.
In conclusion, LeBron is much more clutch than Jordan. When the two smelled blood and had a chance to eliminate their opponents, LeBron wins 2.7% more often. When their backs are against the wall, LeBron wins 16.7% more often. Jordan only improved slightly in a few categories when facing elimination. LeBron improved in almost every single category and improved incredibly when facing elimination. To say LeBron doesn't play better and more clutch in crunch time situations is absurd. LeBron James has also hit more buzzer beaters than Jordan, and more go-ahead shots with five seconds to go in the game. His field goal percentage on these shots is also higher than Jordan's.
Jordan vs. LeBron Clutch Shots Postseason
Field Goals Field Goal % Buzzer Beaters
Jordan 5-11 45.5% 3
LeBron 7-15 46.7% 5
When Lebron pouts his team gets deflated and loses. When Jordan punches his teammates the team steps their game up and win. Even still that's not a apples to apples comparison. Jordan punched Steve Kerr in practice, then apologized, and repaired the relationship. Lebron was in the actual game, in the heat of battle, and he quit on his teammates. Wouldn't even look at them. All they had to do was put together 5 more minutes of great basketball and they still could have won the game but...Lebron pouted and gave up. In 2011 Lebron disappeared on his team for an entire NBA finals. Lebron passes blame onto his teammates on a regular basis. Fakes injuries. Tell me when to stop.
When Lebron has a team that's struggling he doesn't work with his teammates and figure things out he just gets them all traded lol. Jordan worked with what he had. When Pippen was mentally weak Jordan built him up. He help develop players like Horace Grant, BJ Armstrong, and John Paxson into dependable role players. He successfully managed Rodman's personality(along with Phil). He help take Toni Kukoc from the shy, soft Croation into the 6th man of the year. All of Jordan's past teammates say that his work ethic set the tone for every practice and every game. Phil said his coaching style worked because Jordan bought into the system and then everyone followed him.
Lebron is notoroius for making his teammates worse. What Lebron does is make role player, spot up shooters better. But guys like Kyrie, Kevin Love, Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, Isaiah Thomas, Brandon Ingram, Kyle Kuzma, ect...they get worse.
Most of this reads as just your perception & tells me that you like Michael & dislike Lebron. You've put a favorable spin on Jordan's leadership & an unfavorable one on Lebron's. I don't feel the need to delve into this part of it, but I understand & appreciate your perspective. & let me reiterate that there are times when I feel strongly that Jordan is number one. I go back & forth. Even when I made my top 5 I hesitated because I wasn't sure I wanted the inevitable pushback that comes with putting Lebron over Jordan. But I'm glad I did because this has been a good debate imo
