Magic Johnson top 5?

[TheComebackKid]

Larry Bird accomplished close to Lebron's whole career in about 8 years. Magic did it in 12.

Everyone keeps trying to compare Lebron to Jordan but it's not an equal comparison. Lebron is much closer to Wilt Chamberlain than Michael Jordan. Freakish athlete, individual phenom, great stats...but a bad leader, susceptible to folding under pressure, who consistently lost.

 

[Zoolander]

@Zoolander

What is your reasoning behind putting Lebron above Jordan? From my perspective there is absolutely no case you can make. Jordan had significantly more team success, significantly more individual awards and accolades, significantly better statistics, significantly bigger impact on the sport/league, was a significantly better leader, significantly better clutch time performer, and accomplished all of this is significantly less time. The only thing you can really say is that Lebron might get you an extra rebound or assist per game. Even the eye test goes to Jordan.

Also, part of Jordan's legacy was once he broke through he never lost. Nobody else could win during his era. Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Reggie...all shut out because of Jordan. However, Lebron let's everyone win. In fact Steph, KD, Tim, and Dirk all have winning records against Lebron in the Finals. And Kawhi is 1-1. Jordan never went through long stretches where he was just shut out from winning titles by his contemporaries.

Jordan also faced better competition overall. The eastern conference in the 90s was very competitive with strong, memorable teams led by eventual hall of famers. Lebron's eastern conference has been quite possibly the worst conference the NBA has had since the 60s. And it was by design. Lebron consolidated all of the eastern conference elite talent (Wade, Bosh, Allen) thereby forming a superteam while also eliminating his competition at the same time. That is why out of the entire 2010s Lebron only beat two elite eastern conference teams: 2011 Bulls and the 2014 Pacers.

And on top of all of that Jordan has better analytics too lol.

Given all of this what case do you have for Lebron?

I have absolutely no issue with anyone placing Jordan #1. But I think I can make a compelling argument against all of your points. Unfortunately I'm in no condition at the moment lol

 

[PRESIDENT TRUMP]

Larry Bird accomplished close to Lebron's whole career in about 8 years. Magic did it in 12.

Everyone keeps trying to compare Lebron to Jordan but it's not an equal comparison. Lebron is much closer to Wilt Chamberlain than Michael Jordan. Freakish athlete, individual phenom, great stats...but a bad leader, susceptible to folding under pressure, who consistently lost.

lmao.

 

[PRESIDENT TRUMP]

Larry Bird accomplished close to Lebron's whole career in about 8 years. Magic did it in 12.

Everyone keeps trying to compare Lebron to Jordan but it's not an equal comparison. Lebron is much closer to Wilt Chamberlain than Michael Jordan. Freakish athlete, individual phenom, great stats...but a bad leader, susceptible to folding under pressure, who consistently lost.

What exactly was bird better than LeBron at other than shooting free throws?

D? Nope

Rebounding ? Nope (averaged more TRB, but played in an era of positions and has less TRB%

Playmaking ? Absolutely not

Athleticism? Lol


Leadership? 8 straight finals with three different teams in a tougher era says nope

3p%? Yes on four less shots.

So, he was a better shooter?
That's it

Reggie Miller was also a better shooter?

There hasn't been an argument for bird over LeBron since 2008

 

[TheComebackKid]

What exactly was bird better than LeBron at other than shooting free throws?

D? Nope

Rebounding ? Nope (averaged more TRB, but played in an era of positions and has less TRB%

Playmaking ? Absolutely not

Athleticism? Lol


Leadership? 8 straight finals with three different teams in a tougher era says nope

3p%? Yes on four less shots.

So, he was a better shooter?
That's it

Reggie Miller was also a better shooter?

There hasn't been an argument for bird over LeBron since 2008

Bird is a better shooter from 3pt, midrange, and free throw. He has a better post up and midrange game which gives him more ways to score. Better rebounder. Better leader. Better clutch performer. Comparable passer/playmaker. Higher IQ, better decisions. And matched Lebrons entire resume(almost) in 8 healthy seasons.

Also, in regards to competition Bird has defeated Magic, Kareem, Moses, Hakeem, Dr J, Isiah Thomas, and Michael Jordan in the playoffs...multiple times each(sans Hakeem).

 

[Mamba Mentality]

Not sensitive. Just an adult.

1. Bodied? You haven't made any points & you skip over (or won't address) all of mine. Once again, you need to grow up.

2. I wasn't sure what you were getting at with #2 tbh. You mentioned winning, accolades & eye test as if the guys in my top 5 don't have all 3. I assumed rings were the thing that mattered to you since the other 2 are more of a given. My fault for assuming.

3. You seem like a real jerk bro. Why be a dick to someone for no reason? If I met you in real life I bet we'd get along great, so what is this that you're doing? & before you say I'm sensitive or whatever quip you have in store, be clear that what you say here doesn't affect me. But I think we as people should treat each other better. To me, that's important.

I'm not going to discuss Lebron with you. That will get me nowhere.

Lol you need to get thicker skin bro. Welcome to the Sports BAR. We'd get along fine irl, i do with everyone, in fact you'd probably fall in love with me because I'm so handsome (fax). But i would make fun of you for this top 5 and wilt wilt sucking and I'd expect you to talk shit back, like men, not cry and call me a meanie head!

My #2 was very clear, simple and concise. If you want to be detailed about these lists you need to know the players history, opponents, era and accolades/what they did for the sport/impact.

All of these guys had this that listed, but there's levels to this shit bruh.

 

[PRESIDENT TRUMP]

Bird is a better shooter from 3pt, midrange, and free throw. He has a better post up and midrange game which gives him more ways to score. Better rebounder. Better leader. Better clutch performer. Comparable passer/playmaker. Higher IQ, better decisions. And matched Lebrons entire resume(almost) in 8 healthy seasons.

Also, in regards to competition Bird has defeated Magic, Kareem, Moses, Hakeem, Dr J, Isiah Thomas, and Michael Jordan in the playoffs...multiple times each(sans Hakeem).

So he was just a better shooter? Seth curry all time great. He wasn't a better rebounder ( numbers show this) he also wasnt a better leader (numbers show this) so he was a better shooter. Thanks for answering my question

 

[PRESIDENT TRUMP]

@Mamba Mentality got ruined even worse than Kobe's clutch shooting in this thread

 

[Mamba Mentality]

@Mamba Mentality got ruined even worse than Kobe's clutch shooting in this thread

Never heard of you but that statement is the very definition of failure. I almost feel embarrassed for you.

 

[Bamboozled]

I don't have a lot of respect for rankings that emphasize analytics and made up stats while minimizing team success. I like methedologies that prioritize winning or else why even play the game? We can just remove the playoffs and just plug everyones regular season stats into an algorithm and let the computer decides who the champions are.

There are team analytics though

@Zoolander

What is your reasoning behind putting Lebron above Jordan? From my perspective there is absolutely no case you can make. Jordan had significantly more team success, significantly more individual awards and accolades, significantly better statistics, significantly bigger impact on the sport/league, was a significantly better leader, significantly better clutch time performer, and accomplished all of this is significantly less time. The only thing you can really say is that Lebron might get you an extra rebound or assist per game. Even the eye test goes to Jordan.

Also, part of Jordan's legacy was once he broke through he never lost. Nobody else could win during his era. Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Reggie...all shut out because of Jordan. However, Lebron let's everyone win. In fact Steph, KD, Tim, and Dirk all have winning records against Lebron in the Finals. And Kawhi is 1-1. Jordan never went through long stretches where he was just shut out from winning titles by his contemporaries.

Jordan also faced better competition overall. The eastern conference in the 90s was very competitive with strong, memorable teams led by eventual hall of famers. Lebron's eastern conference has been quite possibly the worst conference the NBA has had since the 60s. And it was by design. Lebron consolidated all of the eastern conference elite talent (Wade, Bosh, Allen) thereby forming a superteam while also eliminating his competition at the same time. That is why out of the entire 2010s Lebron only beat two elite eastern conference teams: 2011 Bulls and the 2014 Pacers.

And on top of all of that Jordan has better analytics too lol.

Given all of this what case do you have for Lebron?

He lost to the Magic in his comeback

Larry Bird accomplished close to Lebron's whole career in about 8 years. Magic did it in 12.

Everyone keeps trying to compare Lebron to Jordan but it's not an equal comparison. Lebron is much closer to Wilt Chamberlain than Michael Jordan. Freakish athlete, individual phenom, great stats...but a bad leader, susceptible to folding under pressure, who consistently lost.

Yeah man, tell me when Jordan led a team with Drew Gooden or Mo Williams as his second best player past the first round of the playoffs.

LeBron is one of the best leaders in the history of the game.

 

[Bamboozled]

Anyways, @TheComebackKid is trying to catch Jordan's semen and turn this into a BUT NOBODY CAN POSSIBLY BE BETTER THAN JORDAN thread despite the fact its about magic fucking ohnson (thanks @Corona )

 

[TheComebackKid]

There are team analytics though



He lost to the Magic in his comeback

We all know that one doesnt count

Yeah man, tell me when Jordan led a team with Drew Gooden or Mo Williams as his second best player past the first round of the playoffs.

That was a great accomplishment but not better than winning threes titles in a row with Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant as your best players.

LeBron is one of the best leaders in the history of the game.

Not better than Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kobe, Tim, Russell...

 

[Bamboozled]

We all know that one doesnt count



That was a great accomplishment but not better than winning threes titles in a row with Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant as your best players.



Not better than Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kobe, Tim, Russell...

it counts

shocker having a better team got Jordan better results

Literally better than all of those cans with great teams

 

[TheComebackKid]

it counts

shocker having a better team got Jordan better results

Lebron has played on hand picked super teams for the majority of his career. And yet you still claim he needs help.

Dwade and Chris Bosh were leading their own eastern conference playoff teams. Lebron consolidated the talent from his own conference to form a superteam thereby eliminating his competition in the process. Then he took Ray Allen from the Celtics lol.

Stop with the "Lebron needs help" narrative. Lebron has had plenty of help just doesnt know how to utilize it. Thats the difference between he and someone like Magic.

Literally better than all of those cans with great teams

Its game 1 of the 2018 NBA finals and JR Smith has just blown a last second shot attempt to win the game. The game is now tied going into overtime. JR Smith is devestated and feels terrible. The team is completely deflated. They all look towards their leader for direction and answers. This is what they see:

LOL. The man is literally pouting.

Jordan, Bird, Kobe, Tim, Magic, Russell...they would shook it off, told their teammates to do the same, and went out and fought for 5 more minutes.

 

[gspieler]

Has the NBA seen a better PG than Magic?

 

[Zoolander]

Lol you need to get thicker skin bro. Welcome to the Sports BAR. We'd get along fine irl, i do with everyone, in fact you'd probably fall in love with me because I'm so handsome (fax). But i would make fun of you for this top 5 and wilt wilt sucking and I'd expect you to talk shit back, like men, not cry and call me a meanie head!

My #2 was very clear, simple and concise. If you want to be detailed about these lists you need to know the players history, opponents, era and accolades/what they did for the sport/impact.

All of these guys had this that listed, but there's levels to this shit bruh.

Not about thicker skin man! I feel like I'm Kawhi Leonard out here balling & you know you can't guard me, so you're doing your best Zaza Pachulia being antagonistic & shit. Don't be Zaza Pachulia bro!

The problem is you're not debating, you're just trying to annoy me. You don't address any points I make or offer any evidence of your own. If this is enjoyable to you, I'm cool with it, but I hoped for more. Did you seriously type that 2nd paragraph?? Lmaooooo

 

[Bamboozled]

a bunch of stupid shit people have already destroyed me on but i'm too dense to understand anything and am an unathletic geek

yeah bro don't care

 

[Mamba Mentality]

Not about thicker skin man! I feel like I'm Kawhi Leonard out here balling & you know you can't guard me, so you're doing your best Zaza Pachulia being antagonistic & shit. Don't be Zaza Pachulia bro!

The problem is you're not debating, you're just trying to annoy me. You don't address any points I make or offer any evidence of your own. If this is enjoyable to you, I'm cool with it, but I hoped for more. Did you seriously type that 2nd paragraph?? Lmaooooo

He feels like Kawhi out here...












Crazy shook, over a light ribbing. Welcome to the sports bar. And no LeBron is not the greatest ever. No one but newbs and the scrubs who follow LeBron from team to team believe that.

 

[Revolver]

Lebron has played on hand picked super teams for the majority of his career. And yet you still claim he needs help.

Dwade and Chris Bosh were leading their own eastern conference playoff teams. Lebron consolidated the talent from his own conference to form a superteam thereby eliminating his competition in the process. Then he took Ray Allen from the Celtics lol.

Stop with the "Lebron needs help" narrative. Lebron has had plenty of help just doesnt know how to utilize it. Thats the difference between he and someone like Magic.



Its game 1 of the 2018 NBA finals and JR Smith has just blown a last second shot attempt to win the game. The game is now tied going into overtime. JR Smith is devestated and feels terrible. The team is completely deflated. They all look towards their leader for direction and answers. This is what they see:

LOL. The man is literally pouting.

Jordan, Bird, Kobe, Tim, Magic, Russell...they would shook it off, told their teammates to do the same, and went out and fought for 5 more minutes.

Lmao @ hand picked super teams. Meanwhile they were missing the playoffs before and after Lebron. Jordan was the goat degenerate I’ll at least give him that.

 

[Zoolander]

@Zoolander

What is your reasoning behind putting Lebron above Jordan? From my perspective there is absolutely no case you can make. Jordan had significantly more team success, significantly more individual awards and accolades, significantly better statistics, significantly bigger impact on the sport/league, was a significantly better leader, significantly better clutch time performer, and accomplished all of this is significantly less time. The only thing you can really say is that Lebron might get you an extra rebound or assist per game. Even the eye test goes to Jordan.

Also, part of Jordan's legacy was once he broke through he never lost. Nobody else could win during his era. Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Reggie...all shut out because of Jordan. However, Lebron let's everyone win. In fact Steph, KD, Tim, and Dirk all have winning records against Lebron in the Finals. And Kawhi is 1-1. Jordan never went through long stretches where he was just shut out from winning titles by his contemporaries.

Jordan also faced better competition overall. The eastern conference in the 90s was very competitive with strong, memorable teams led by eventual hall of famers. Lebron's eastern conference has been quite possibly the worst conference the NBA has had since the 60s. And it was by design. Lebron consolidated all of the eastern conference elite talent (Wade, Bosh, Allen) thereby forming a superteam while also eliminating his competition at the same time. That is why out of the entire 2010s Lebron only beat two elite eastern conference teams: 2011 Bulls and the 2014 Pacers.

And on top of all of that Jordan has better analytics too lol.

Given all of this what case do you have for Lebron?

Lebron has a slightly higher career winning percentage & a slightly lower career playoff win percentage, but Jordan doubles Bron's rings so no argument there. But I think Jordan's ring count might be different if he had to go against a team the caliber of the Curry, Thompson, Durant Warriors. Were the Bulls ever a finals underdog? How many times was Lebron favored? He choked against Dallas as the favorite, no excuses for that garbage. But I always found it telling that the Bulls won 55 games in the season Jordan missed.

ppg rpg apg fg% 3pt% efg% ft% PER WS
MJ 30.1 6.2 5.3 49.7% 32.7% 83.5% 50.9% 27.9 214
LBJ 27.1 7.4 7.4 50.4% 34.4% 73.5% 54.1% 27.5 234

I don't see a significant difference here. A strong argument can be made for either player.

MJ
Six-time NBA champion
Six-time NBA Finals MVP
Five-time NBA MVP
14-time NBA All-Star
Three-time NBA All-Star Game MVP
11-time All-NBA
Nine-time NBA All-Defensive First Team
NBA Rookie of the Year – 1984–85
NBA Defensive Player of the Year – 1987–88

Lebron
3× NBA Champion
3× NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
4× NBA Most Valuable Player
16× NBA All-Star
3× NBA All-Star Game MVP
15× All-NBA
6× NBA All-DefensiveNBA Rookie of the Year: 2004

Edge to Michael

The clutch conversation is a compelling one. Certain players have a clutch reputation but it isn't always backed up by statistics. Lebron has made more clutch shots in the playoffs than MJ has. What's held against Bron is his instinct is to make the right play, not take the last shot.


I'm not sure how you're choosing to measure leadership. Lebron pouts on the sidelines, Jordan punches teammates in the face. They lead in different ways, but I THINK everyone who plays with Lebron would say he's a great leader. Would MJ's teammates say the same? How much credit does Phil deserve?

Of the top 15 PER seasons of all time both have 4 entries. In career PER they're 1-2. Of the top 25 PER playoffs years Lebron has 6 entries to Michael's 4. In career playoff PER Michael is first at 28.6. Lebron is third at 28.28. Value over replacement Lebron is first, MJ is second. We could go on & on, but there's no significant advantage here.

Again, I would never argue against anyone placing Jordan #1. He deserves it. But I give the edge to Lebron based on his cerebral all-around game & ability to make his teammates better. But I go back & forth on this all the time.