Media Lift Logic: Why Muay Thai Fails In MMA.

[markantony20]

Came across this video about Muay Thai in MMA which also broke down the fight between Ian Garry and Prates back in April.

Would be curious to see your guys take on this.



Cliffs:

Says Carlos Prates is a very traditional style fighter despite coming from a new gen gym like The Fighting Nerds.

Says despite Ian Garry training at a more traditional gym like Chute Boxe he is a very modern well rounded fighter.

says that despite Carlos’s very traditional high guard and light lead leg he boasts one of the best TDD in the division.

Recounts the story of Khalil Rountree being knocked out by Johnny Walker, traveling to Thailand and immersing himself in Muay Thai coming back great on the feet but then being destroyed on the ground by a wrestler forcing him to abandon a traditional MT style.

Says the only athletes who have implemented a traditional MT guard have been fighters with another strength.

Give the example of Charles Olivera who has this type of guard, he doesn’t care if you take him down because he’s so good off his back.

Says the traditional Muay Thai stance is a very stationary one.

Says Muay Thai is a game of turns where athletes take turns unloading their strikes against a shelled up opponent.

Says Prates shells up and disengages when Garry moves in to engage instead of countering.

Claims that most Thai fighters aren’t good in the pocket.

Says because MT is such a rangy style that punishes you when you enter the pocket with knees and elbows that someone who is a Thai fighter will be at a significant disadvantage in the pocket.

Says Jon Jones is a fundamentally MT style fighter who in his closest fights spent too much time in the pocket against superior boxers.

Says the usual response by a Thai fighter when in the pocket is to pull long guard and circle out which doesn’t work in MMA because your opponent can cut you off against the cage.

Gives advice on how to “fix” MT for MMA, like be more comfortable in the pocket, have a more flexible stance,you need to cut angles.

 

[markantony20]

This isn’t groundbreaking but I do like that he gave some “relevant” examples of fights instead of just saying Muay Thai isn’t good for MMA like a lot of others when this topic comes up.

 

[Pierce 34]

I used moo aaah thai against my mom once and i still got my ass beat.

so yeah it doesnt work

 

[benebox]

Haggerty has a great style for mma. MT fans are fickle though and started hating on him for moving out of range instead of just going toe to toe like most MT fighters do.

 

[markantony20]

I used moo aaah thai against my mom once and i still got my ass beat.

so yeah it doesnt work

Did you touch he with teh jab?

 

[markantony20]

Haggerty has a great style for mma. MT fans are fickle though and started hating on him for moving out of range instead of just going toe to toe like most MT fighters do.

Crazy for anyone to hate on him he’s great

 

[benebox]

Crazy for anyone to hate on him he’s great

100%, and very humble. The hate came after he beat some of the favorite Thai legends in the game.

 

[rollthedice]

Dude has some basic level of understanding on muay Thai and sure some of it not useful, more of it is useful and muay Thai is as popular and utilized as much wrestling, bjj, boxing etc in MMA.

Here's just a few people that have great muay Thai and have been UFC champs. Charles Olivera (developed late in career but utilities it beautifully), Joanna Jedrzejczyk, Valentina Shevchenko, Anderson Silva, Jose Aldo, Petr Yan (boxing background but has great muay Thai and uses Thai sweeps the best I've seen, Pedro Rizzo, Shogun. I have an even bigger list for non champions in the UFC, guys like Jiri, Cowboy, Condit, Till, Barboza, Thiago Alves etc

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Dude has some basic level of understanding on muay Thai and sure some of it not useful, more of it is useful and muay Thai is as popular and utilized as much wrestling, bjj, boxing etc in MMA.

Here's just a few people that have great muay Thai and have been UFC champs. Charles Olivera (developed late in career but utilities it beautifully), Joanna Jedrzejczyk, Valentina Shevchenko, Anderson Silva, Jose Aldo, Petr Yan (boxing background but has great muay Thai and uses Thai sweeps the best I've seen, Pedro Rizzo, Shogun. I have an even bigger list for non champions in the UFC, guys like Jiri, Cowboy, Condit, Till, Barboza, Thiago Alves etc

Jiri was a UFC champ.

 

[Rallarsvingare]

I dont disagree with his analysis of Carlos Prates but I do disagree with some of his views on muay thai.

And the Khalil fight is just another striker vs grappler matchup. I dont think it necessary is muay thais fault that his lost, rather that he spent too much time on his striking training instead of grappling. I dont think it would have made any difference if he instead chose to train boxing full time instead, he would still end up on the ground and lose the fight.

My main crititique of his view about muay thai is that he dont understand how diverse muay thai is. Its so much more than what he just call the traditional stance and high guard.

I also disagree when he claims Muay thai is a rangy style that spend little time in the pocket. I would say its the complete opposite. Of all striking styles muay thai is the one who spends less time in a far range and more time in the pocket, the difference with muay thai in the pocket is that it also involves knees and elbows while other styles only includes the hands. I lived in Thailand for almost 18 months and the one place where thai fighters dominated foreigners was in the pocket, the knees, elbows and the clinch were their strong weapons.

When it comes to Jon Jones I never really considered him a muay thai fighter but not really saying he's not. But just as in the case of Khalil I dont think its because of his style but rather the fighter, Jones is a tall fighter and its always been his advantage in striking of course the times he's close to losing the fight is when his opponents manages to close the range and force Jones to fight at their preferred distance instead of his.

 

[rollthedice]

Jiri was a UFC champ.

My bad, baked as a cake over here. On a side note, that fight he had with Glover was chaotic!

 

[rollthedice]

I dont disagree with his analysis of Carlos Prates but I do disagree with some of his views on muay thai.

And the Khalil fight is just another striker vs grappler matchup. I dont think it necessary is muay thais fault that his lost, rather that he spent too much time on his striking training instead of grappling. I dont think it would have made any difference if he instead chose to train boxing full time instead, he would still end up on the ground and lose the fight.

My main crititique of his view about muay thai is that he dont understand how diverse muay thai is. Its so much more than what he just call the traditional stance and high guard.

I also disagree when he claims Muay thai is a rangy style that spend little time in the pocket. I would say its the complete opposite. Of all striking styles muay thai is the one who spends less time in a far range and more time in the pocket, the difference with muay thai in the pocket is that it also involves knees and elbows while other styles only includes the hands. I lived in Thailand for almost 18 months and the one place where thai fighters dominated foreigners was in the pocket, the knees, elbows and the clinch were their strong weapons.

When it comes to Jon Jones I never really considered him a muay thai fighter but not really saying he's not. But just as in the case of Khalil I dont think its because of his style but rather the fighter, Jones is a tall fighter and its always been his advantage in striking of course the times he's close to losing the fight is when his opponents manages to close the range and force Jones to fight at their preferred distance instead of his.

You managed to put a lot of what I was thinking into words, thank you my man.

I agree, he doesn't understand Muay Thai very well, he probably isn't aware of the various styles in muay Thai such as Muay femur or Muay khao etc, these change the dynamics immensely, it's not some hit for hit until someone falls shit he made it out to be. Almost all the guys I've trained and competed with don't want to get hit cleanly..

I believe when they talk about 'in the pocket', I believe they are referring to head on head, close range boxing kinda fighting, without the grappling and clinching, because you have to be retarded to say a Muay Thai fighter is bad at close range.

I wouldn't consider Jones a Muay Thai specialist or anything but he has developed some great elbows and knees and his clinch is great, but we got to remember also, that his clinch is great because of his deep greco roman wrestling background. Both Khalil and Jones use techniques from muay Thai and are both rather successful with them, hence why I agree with what you're saying and disagree with the original video, because there is plenty of evidence that the majority of the techniques are effective.

I think the big difference is, when competing in muay Thai you only have to focus on the Muay Thai coming back, whereas in MMA, if you try to just do Muay Thai, it most likely won't go well unless you actually mix other martial arts with it. Same way wrestling, bjj, boxing, TKD, judo etc would all suffer the moment you take one aspect from another art away from it.

 

[Harlekin]

He is talking mostly about TRADITIONAL Muay Thai.
Modern Muay Thai Champs incorporate a lot of boxing footwork, defense and more.
Boxing evolved a lot more over time. Maybe because of money, PED, tapes, internet, more world wide of a sport.
While Thailand was still not that developed as a country in the 90s.

 

[markantony20]

He is talking mostly about TRADITIONAL Muay Thai.
Modern Muay Thai Champs incorporate a lot of boxing footwork, defense and more.
Boxing evolved a lot more over time. Maybe because of money, PED, tapes, internet, more world wide of a sport.
While Thailand was still not that developed as a country in the 90s.

A lot of Thais in ONE and RWS have improved on boxing.

I think because they fight a lot in kickboxing in Japan and Japanese kickboxers have some really good hands typically.

 

[Rallarsvingare]

He is talking mostly about TRADITIONAL Muay Thai.
Modern Muay Thai Champs incorporate a lot of boxing footwork, defense and more.
Boxing evolved a lot more over time. Maybe because of money, PED, tapes, internet, more world wide of a sport.
While Thailand was still not that developed as a country in the 90s.

I still disagree, he have no idea about what traditional muay thai is, I would even argue that back in the golden age of muay thai, the 80's was more diverse than it is now. What you are talking about was also there back then. Fighters like Samart won titles in both muay thai and boxing.

 

[Harlekin]

I still disagree, he have no idea about what traditional muay thai is, I would even argue that back in the golden age of muay thai, the 80's was more diverse than it is now. What you are talking about was also there back then. Fighters like Samart won titles in both muay thai and boxing.

True, but how many of those slick fighters were there? Especially in rural areas.
Not that many.

 

[wrestlefan]

Amir Sadollah disproved this theory.

 

[markantony20]

Amir Sadollah disproved this theory.

Now that’s a throwback

 

[Rallarsvingare]

A lot of Thais in ONE and RWS have improved on boxing.

I think because they fight a lot in kickboxing in Japan and Japanese kickboxers have some really good hands typically.

I really think is the other way around. Its not the thai who are bad boxers, it just happens to be that the hands are usually the only weapons foreigners are able to beat the thais. Thais dominate the kicks, knees elbow and clinch. The only part were foreigners are the same level is with the hands.

 

[Tweak896]

News at 11, traditional boxing stances make you susceptible to takedowns and kicks. Boxing is useless in mma without a secondary skill!

I get what he's saying and appreciate the breakdown, but almost every single specialized skill needs to be adapted for the variety of disciplines. Muy Thai gives so much more versatility compared to other forms of striking, clearly it has proven itself over the years. Not only that but the UFC has become more striker oriented as its evolved.