Lets talk chimpanzees vs humans

Readybodisready

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I will copy and paste my post from another thread:

Chimps are not 5 times, or 10 times or even 15 times stronger than humans, that is a known debunked myth, it spawned from a fake zoo story in the 20th century.

Secondly Chimps may look tough when they beat up old ladies like that one known story, but they've never been in a position where they tried to attack an MMA fighter. There is a video where a chimp goes on a rampage on a terrified, fleeing park ranger and it barely was able to pull the guy down. In fact the chimp looked weak as fuck and I would see an MMA fighter tear that ape a new one.

Essentially the only thing dangerous about chimps are it's teeth.


Here's the video. Does this look like an animal that's a jizzilion times stronger than humans? Does anybody have real, scientific studies showing this strength discrepancy? Not the BS story about a female chimp pulling 1000000lbs with one finger please.
 
How come it's agreed upon that sex with animals is bestiality and disgusting, but a fight with an animal is something people are curious about? Well...some people. Apparently the Romans tested "predators against humans".

Those "strength equivalencies" are not correct like you say: they are also not quantitative. But all non-human apes are stronger than us, it's not even a debate. On the other hand, they will never play the guitar. Then, it's a false equivalent to put the top male against an average ape. Why isn't your thought experiment a top well-trained ape, of equivalent weight, against the human?

But they wouldn't fight a professional fighter, they don't even understand what "fighting is" outside their own context of dominance and hunting. So, these ideas are nonsensical for many reasons.

But all non-human apes are stronger than us, it's not even a debate.

I notice that Chimp supporters always leave these type of statements very open ended. When you make a broad statement like this you might want to clarify exactly how they're stronger. For one, that to me means that you're claiming they're stronger in terms of functional strength and in this case in a situation like a fight.

I would need scientific evidence of that. For one, you realise that chimps are adapted to a different environment? They have shorter, weaker legs which are shorter and weaker than their arms. That alone is going to put them at a massive disadvantage against a strongman lifter who's strnegth base is at his legs and core. They also have less control over their muscles like humans, that is why they flop around in a goofy uncoordinated way when they fight eachother.

The only thing they have over humans as far as I can see is their canines and bite force which have been studied. They're also better at bodyweight type of exercises that involve arm strength because they evolved to swing from tree branches. What do you really have in terms of evidence that they're so superior to our strongest humans?
 
Stop peddling this bro-science, brah.

This is a decent read, backed with research:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/chimpanzees-humans-sizing-strength/story?id=16696826

shaved-chimp.jpg


This beast, armed with razor sharp teeth which can tear you from limb to limb, is going to start biting your balls off, pulling off your ears, poking your eyes - the moment it gets its hands on you.

Chimp wins 19 times out of 20.

Professor Cigano, OUT.
 
I notice that Chimp supporters always leave these type of statements very open ended. When you make a broad statement like this you might want to clarify exactly how they're stronger. For one, that to me means that you're claiming they're stronger in terms of functional strength and in this case in a situation like a fight.

I would need scientific evidence of that. For one, you realise that chimps are adapted to a different environment? They have shorter, weaker legs which are shorter and weaker than their arms. That alone is going to put them at a massive disadvantage against a strongman lifter who's strnegth base is at his legs and core. They also have less control over their muscles like humans, that is why they flop around in a goofy uncoordinated way when they fight eachother.

The only thing they have over humans as far as I can see is their canines and bite force which have been studied. They're also better at bodyweight type of exercises that involve arm strength because they evolved to swing from tree branches. What do you really have in terms of evidence that they're so superior to our strongest humans?

There is no such think as "chimp supporters". If anything, like the reference I made to bestiality, I advise against any altercation with a wild animal without a weapon in hand. It's not that I want to see chimps fight. It's more that I advise you to carry a rifle if you're gonna be around them.

I've been mauled by a pitbull. I much rather fight an MMA guy than go through that again.

Ok, your points. About the video: yes, it looks like an animal that is considerably stronger than a man. Also, it would take a team of specialists to know if the chimp was being playful, aggressive, and so on. There would never be a consensus on the chimps intentions, as that is a huge question for anyone studying behaviour. The video is meaningless, but shows a dangerous animal, like all wild animals. Do not forget: we are prey, we make tools, use the tools.

The thing is: what is scientifically available answered questions that puzzled scientists, not fighting enthusiasts. For example, researchers wanted to understand if apes could build tools, communicate and so on. So, we know that most apes have the vocal cords very low in the throat.

What is scientifically well-documented, you can search at your own leisure, is that the innervation of non-human apes muscles is different from us. We have a lot more nerve terminals to make better use of coordinated fine motions, whereas other apes have coarser innervation, which makes it impossible for them to perform fine movement. The have muscles adapted to climbing at great speeds, extreme grip and so on.

But chimps do not violate a rule of muscle strength: the muscle cross section determines the force. It happens that at lower body masses, apes have larger muscle cross sections for most relevant muscles, which is how people have poorly estimated these "2X, 5X, 1000X" stronger, that I agree with you, are all wrong. But they have thicker more powerful muscles than us that have large innervation areas: and this is their natural state, without supplemental nutrition, training and so on.

The idea of a fight between a human and an animal is a misunderstanding. We have developed martial arts as a way to defend and attack other humans. Animals have completely different behaviours and intentions. For example, animals do "fight" for mating privileges, but they would never apply that ritual against a human. They can attack to kill and eat. There is no amount of martial arts and strength that can defend a human against a top predator (big cats and so on) triggered to kill. From the ape world, if they attacked a human, it would be defensive or territorial: these kinds of attacks can stop at any moment and so on. But there is no human who could defend himself against a Gorilla. A chimp is debatable: they can be shy, and quickly get scared of a larger creature, so I agree with you that a large human can overpower a chimp. On the other hand, I do not advise any human to try this because the chimp can cause unspeakable harm to the human.

I hope I made myself clear.
 
Leave it to sherdog to create a thread about debating whether an MMA fighter can beat up a chimp.
 
Leave it to sherdog to create a thread about debating whether an MMA fighter can beat up a chimp.
Could Lesnar beat up a silverback gorilla? Dont think the gorilla could stop Lesnar's double leg takedown and the gnp that follows.
 
The human only escaped by jumping into the river. Chimp wins this one.
 
There is no such think as "chimp supporters". If anything, like the reference I made to bestiality, I advise against any altercation with a wild animal without a weapon in hand. It's not that I want to see chimps fight. It's more that I advise you to carry a rifle if you're gonna be around them.

I've been mauled by a pitbull. I much rather fight an MMA guy than go through that again.

Ok, your points. About the video: yes, it looks like an animal that is considerably stronger than a man. Also, it would take a team of specialists to know if the chimp was being playful, aggressive, and so on. There would never be a consensus on the chimps intentions, as that is a huge question for anyone studying behaviour. The video is meaningless, but shows a dangerous animal, like all wild animals. Do not forget: we are prey, we make tools, use the tools.

The thing is: what is scientifically available answered questions that puzzled scientists, not fighting enthusiasts. For example, researchers wanted to understand if apes could build tools, communicate and so on. So, we know that most apes have the vocal cords very low in the throat.

What is scientifically well-documented, you can search at your own leisure, is that the innervation of non-human apes muscles is different from us. We have a lot more nerve terminals to make better use of coordinated fine motions, whereas other apes have coarser innervation, which makes it impossible for them to perform fine movement. The have muscles adapted to climbing at great speeds, extreme grip and so on.

But chimps do not violate a rule of muscle strength: the muscle cross section determines the force. It happens that at lower body masses, apes have larger muscle cross sections for most relevant muscles, which is how people have poorly estimated these "2X, 5X, 1000X" stronger, that I agree with you, are all wrong. But they have thicker more powerful muscles than us that have large innervation areas: and this is their natural state, without supplemental nutrition, training and so on.

The idea of a fight between a human and an animal is a misunderstanding. We have developed martial arts as a way to defend and attack other humans. Animals have completely different behaviours and intentions. For example, animals do "fight" for mating privileges, but they would never apply that ritual against a human. They can attack to kill and eat. There is no amount of martial arts and strength that can defend a human against a top predator (big cats and so on) triggered to kill. From the ape world, if they attacked a human, it would be defensive or territorial: these kinds of attacks can stop at any moment and so on. But there is no human who could defend himself against a Gorilla. A chimp is debatable: they can be shy, and quickly get scared of a larger creature, so I agree with you that a large human can overpower a chimp. On the other hand, I do not advise any human to try this because the chimp can cause unspeakable harm to the human.

I hope I made myself clear.

At this point it doesn't even sound like you disagree with me in general.

On the video, my question wasn't wether the chimp appears to be stronger than the retreating, terrified man but if it really shows such a massive strength discrepancy as has always been claimed? It does not. Also you are showing a double standard there, you spoke a lot about the Chimp's intentions(and no, 10 out of 10 animal experts would agree that the chimp's intention was to attack the man and make him flee) yet you neglect to acknowledge that the man is in no way fighting or in the mental position to try anything but flee.

What I'm saying is if we take a lethal human like a Cain or Miocic who in this case is not scared at all to fight the chimp, what would really happen? Obviously the humans would destroy the chimp, the ONLY danger are it's strong teeth.

And if we take a strongman and chimp in a weight lifting competition the chimp loses badly as well. Its body type is very limited, I only see them having success with certain body weight exercises. Please show evidence to prove this wrong. human strength stats are well documented.

Yes I know about the muscle differences of chimps, but it doesn't tell the whole story. What about the fact that it's legs are shorter and weaker than the upper body? Or that it weighs less and is simply smaller than these type of humans? How can it really use strength effectively with these disadvantages? What about the fact that nearly all of its strength is evolved towards tree climbing and branch swinging? And that they don't have the muscle control, as you mentioned, to really grapple instead of flailing around ?
 
The human only escaped by jumping into the river. Chimp wins this one.

Yeah a scared, fleeing human of average size and strength. That did not look like the chimp is 150940988848 times stronger than humans like bro scientists always claim.

What do you think will happen if he faces a fearless 260lb MMA heavyweight? A chimp is what, 3 to 4 feet tall on its knuckles and sub 200lbs?
 
chimp11.jpg


Id back this guy to take out anyone.

Dont care what skills you have.
 
Regardless, I don't think that anyone should keep chimpanzees as pets.
 
Yeah a scared, fleeing human of average size and strength. That did not look like the chimp is 150940988848 times stronger than humans like bro scientists always claim.

What do you think will happen if he faces a fearless 260lb MMA heavyweight? A chimp is what, 3 to 4 feet tall on its knuckles and sub 200lbs?

That chimp wasn't that high level and admittedly looked like he has areas to work on, but could still pull out a finish against a HW MMA fighter.
 
Leave it to sherdog to create a thread about debating whether an MMA fighter can beat up a chimp.
This is a regularly recurring thread. There is no shortage of morons.
 
Chimps are strong. Not 10x human strong, of course, but strong. Also good luck teaching a chimp to fight under unified rules. It will make Jon Jones shy with it's eye-gouging and it will likely try to bite your tendons or neck arterias.
However, I don't see a chimp taking CroCops LHK or Roy's overhand right very well.
 
At this point it doesn't even sound like you disagree with me in general.

On the video, my question wasn't wether the chimp appears to be stronger than the retreating, terrified man but if it really shows such a massive strength discrepancy as has always been claimed? It does not. Also you are showing a double standard there, you spoke a lot about the Chimp's intentions(and no, 10 out of 10 animal experts would agree that the chimp's intention was to attack the man and make him flee) yet you neglect to acknowledge that the man is in no way fighting or in the mental position to try anything but flee.

What I'm saying is if we take a lethal human like a Cain or Miocic who in this case is not scared at all to fight the chimp, what would really happen? Obviously the humans would destroy the chimp, the ONLY danger are it's strong teeth.

And if we take a strongman and chimp in a weight lifting competition the chimp loses badly as well. Its body type is very limited, I only see them having success with certain body weight exercises. Please show evidence to prove this wrong. human strength stats are well documented.

Yes I know about the muscle differences of chimps, but it doesn't tell the whole story. What about the fact that it's legs are shorter and weaker than the upper body? Or that it weighs less and is simply smaller than these type of humans? How can it really use strength effectively with these disadvantages? What about the fact that nearly all of its strength is evolved towards tree climbing and branch swinging? And that they don't have the muscle control, as you mentioned, to really grapple instead of flailing around ?

No, I don't think we agree muchl. Plus, my advice stays put: the HW should enter that cage with a rifle. The chimp is dangerous for him.

I disagree with your interpretation of the video: it's anecdotal evidence of nothing. The man is there to feed them and so on, and the chimps are being unpredictable chimps. You cannot judge "strength" from that video, precisely because you cannot judge what the chimps were doing. Behaviour specialists would disagree on what went on there.

The "strongmen" competitions you mentioned, and most human-based physical stunts you propose are designed for the human anatomy. Bears, tigers and sharks would also not be capable of lifting these weights and so on. All these animals would kill and if hungry, consume the flesh of any human. Nature allows for many forms of attacks to be effective.

Change the "drill". Humans cannot do "chimp activities" as effectively. We need ropes and safety nets, and the speed up tree trunks like we walk around. That's their "normal", which partially explains their disproportionate arms.

You expect the animal that evolved for a different way of life to perform in a "human way" in a "fight"? They won't, they cannot. It does not matter how strong their legs or whatever are. The danger for your fighter is precisely that it is a wild animal that will defend itself with extreme speed and strength. It's unpredictable, it's not a fight: it's a risk for the physical integrity of the fighter. A lot of "human combat" is based on knocking the opponent out, which correlates to how our brains sit inside our skulls. Other animals do not have the same skull anatomy: there is no guarantee our approach is useful at all. Then what? Hold them down and hurt them and so on? Well, it's animal cruelty and so on, but the animal in consideration, a chimp, can maul someone's face with it's hands. So you put a glove on the chimp to avoid that? Then stop the exercise, the whole thing makes no sense.

Then again, why are you mismatching the weight category? Take a young gorilla that weighs the same as the HW. Your fight isn't fair.

Animals can be dangerous. They are also dangerous to HW champions.

I already said this: a real chimp can be scared of a normal sized human and just run away. But it can also go "ape-shit" and really hurt a HW champ. They are completely unpredictable.
 
Chimps are strong. Not 10x human strong, of course, but strong. Also good luck teaching a chimp to fight under unified rules. It will make Jon Jones shy with it's eye-gouging and it will likely try to bite your tendons or neck arterias.
However, I don't see a chimp taking CroCops LHK or Roy's overhand right very well.

Their brains sit differently inside their skulls. They are a lot like us, but I suspect it takes different types of blows to KO them.

On another note, most predators are build in a way that blows to the head are not effective. You cannot eye-gouge a gator after it bites for example: the eye-ball retracts into the skull.

Animals are beasts man.
 
Their brains sit differently inside their skulls. They are a lot like us, but I suspect it takes different types of blows to KO them.

On another note, most predators are build in a way that blows to the head are not effective. You cannot eye-gouge a gator after it bites for example: the eye-ball retracts into the skull.

Animals are beasts man.
maybe, i don't have statistics of chimps reacting to blows to the head. however, i seen 2 silverbacks fighting, ant they were trading bites and blows, and those blows were aimed to the jaw, very similar to what we see in human fighting.
And I would like to point out that no ape is a predator, they're omnivores like us humans.
 
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