International Lessons from Corona: looking to the future

[Grenz]

As we're all in lockdown , it's time to consider where we went wrong, where we went right, and how we apply this knowledge going forward.

Here's some telling and relevant info from Canada:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/china-praises-canada-slams-u-s-over-coronavirus-response-1.4795270

China praises Canada, slams U.S. over coronavirus response
TORONTO -- Canada was praised for not following the U.S.’ example of enacting a travel ban in light of the coronavirus outbreak by a spokesperson for China’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs on Monday.

Foreign Ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying took questions during an online press conference from international media in regards to the coronavirus and rebuked the U.S.’s response to the outbreak, claiming they had “overreacted,” according to the translated transcript.

“Most countries appreciate and support China's efforts to fight against the novel coronavirus, and we understand and respect them when they adopt or enhance quarantine measures at border entry,” Hua said. “But in the meantime, some countries, the U.S. in particular, have inappropriately overreacted.”

China's stance was echoed by the WHO which declared a public health emergency while still advocating open travel to and from China.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...st-travel-bans-tied-to-coronavirus-backed-by/

When the World Health Organization declared a public-health emergency over the outbreak of a novel coronavirus, the agency’s director-general entreated the world: Don’t impose travel restrictions on people from China.

These are from 7 weeks ago. China praised us for not blocking Chinese travel, instead relying on border screening to contain the spread. As I sit here on a Wednesday morning, in my basement, all non-essential services and businesses are closed. There are more cases daily. Our schools and daycares are closed until May 1st at least. The borders are for all intents and purposes shut down. So the question is: where did we go wrong?

It seems pretty obvious to me that maintaining travel to and from China was not the right advice. Practically the whole planet is now quarantined. In effect, we're doing the opposite of what we were praised for barely 2 months ago, and now every single health authority is telling us the current measures are necessary. What would have been better? To quarantine China in order to halt the spread to other countries, or to wait, and then quarantine literally the entire planet? What measures need to be put in place in the future in order to improve our response to global epidemics? Once we're on the other side of this, how do we manage China?

 

[cincymma79]

Divest as much as possible
Spread manufacturing out more or bring it back home

 

[Teppodama]

Secure home by producing at home. Export the excess. Reliance on another nation for Medical, Tech or Food is stupidity.

 

[Deleted member 263856]

Move more manufacturing home. HEAVY funding for CDC and vaccine research. Pressure China to crack down on wet markets and hygiene in general. I mean they already control almost every aspect of their citizens lives, why not this as well.

 

[superpunch]

What would have been better? To quarantine China in order to halt the spread to other countries, or to wait, and then quarantine literally the entire planet? What measures need to be put in place in the future in order to improve our response to global epidemics? Once we're on the other side of this, how do we manage China?

We've had 2 months to do anything to prepare, and we did nothing. I don't think delaying the outbreaks and having another month of doing nothing would have made a difference.

IMO we shouldn't be looking for scapegoats. China isn't why we have no masks. China isn't why Americans were making fun of people who were wearing masks a month ago. China isn't why we have a shortage of hospital beds and ventilators. China isn't why we have no national tracking system for the virus. China isn't why we don't have enough tests to target the problem surgically with precision instead of just a blanket shutting down the entire country.

Putting blame on China and stuff is just scapegoating. Blaming other people for your problems instead of fixing them yourself is what losers do. Are Americans winners or losers? We should be looking at ourselves and figuring out why we failed. Then we should change ourselves.

There are countries/ places like South Korea, Taiwan, and Hong Kong that handled this crisis successfully and were fully prepared. We should radically redesign our emergency procedures and healthcare system to be like their's.

 

[Deleted member 263856]

Secure home by producing at home. Export the excess. Reliance on another nation for Medical, Tech or Food is stupidity.

Well tech maybe not in every instance. I'd boycott Chinese tech because they spy and steal everything but Koreans and Japanese make pretty awesome tech and don't do that shit. But food and medicine absolutely.

 

[Grenz]

We've had 2 months to do anything to prepare, and we did nothing. I don't think delaying the outbreaks and having another month of doing nothing would have made a difference.

IMO we shouldn't be looking for scapegoats. Putting blame on China and stuff is just scapegoating. Blaming other people for your problems instead of fixing them yourself is what losers do. We should be looking into our own systems and figure out why they failed us. Then we should fix them.

There are countries/ places like South Korea, Taiwan, and Hong Kong that handled this crisis successfully and were fully prepared. We should radically redesign our emergency procedures and healthcare system to be like their's.

Facts: the CCP downplayed this outbreak and is actively engaged in egregious lies to the international community. Why shouldn't we blame China? We've been told since SARS (15 fucking years ago) that it's just a matter of time until China's wet markets will birth another pandemic. Did China do anything to prevent that from happening? Clearly not. I'd argue that in this instance, placing blame on China is absolutely appropriate, and in fact necessary, in order to prevent future outbreaks.

 

[Teppodama]

We've had 2 months to do anything to prepare, and we did nothing. I don't think delaying the outbreaks and having another month of doing nothing would have made a difference.

IMO we shouldn't be looking for scapegoats. China isn't why we have no masks. China isn't why Americans were making fun of people who were wearing masks a month ago. China isn't why we have a shortage of hospital beds and ventilators. China isn't why we have no national tracking system for the virus. China isn't why we don't have enough tests to target the problem surgically with precision instead of just a blanket shutting down the entire country.

Putting blame on China and stuff is just scapegoating. Blaming other people for your problems instead of fixing them yourself is what losers do. We should be looking at ourselves and figuring out why we failed. Then we should change ourselves.

There are countries/ places like South Korea, Taiwan, and Hong Kong that handled this crisis successfully and were fully prepared. We should radically redesign our emergency procedures and healthcare system to be like their's.

Asia can get away with what they did because they have much more control over their population and not constrained against Draconian measures to enact their policies if deemed necessary. What works there would not work here nor should it. If our government is ever able to enact the same sort of control over its citizens as China does its own that will be time when the government should in fact fall as everything the country was founded on would be dead.

 

[superpunch]

Facts: the CCP downplayed this outbreak and is actively engaged in egregious lies to the international community. Why shouldn't we blame China? We've been told since SARS (15 fucking years ago) that it's just a matter of time until China's wet markets will birth another pandemic. Did China do anything to prevent that from happening? Clearly not. I'd argue that in this instance, placing blame on China is absolutely appropriate, and in fact necessary, in order to prevent future outbreaks.

Winners focus on fixing themselves, and losers focus on blaming external factors that they can't control. Americans should have a winner's mentality about this.

So, imagine we play the blame game instead of fixing ourselves. Remember when ebola broke out in Africa? What happens when the next pandemic comes from Africa instead of China? What good will the China blame game do us then?

^ ^ ^ That's how we lose.

Now imagine we fix ourselves instead. We revamp our emergency procedures. We have logistics and emergency manufacturing in place. We change our healthcare system. Then the next pandemic comes from a place that's not China. And we'll be fully prepared!

^ ^ ^ That's how we win.

 

[superpunch]

Asia can get away with what they did because they have much more control over their population and not constrained against Draconian measures to enact their policies if deemed necessary. What works there would not work here nor should it. If our government is ever able to enact the same sort of control over its citizens as China does its own that will be time when the government should in fact fall as everything the country was founded on would be dead.

Literally all Hong Kong, Taiwan, and South Korea did was make lots of tests fast, close public schools for a month, and send out cell phone notifications of positive test cases. Anyone can do that. South Korea is a free, democratic country... We need to make sure in the future that we can and should do what they did.

The USA is currently in the process of quarantining and shutting down the entire country. Mass testing and cell phone notifications sound a bit less extreme to me.

 

[Grenz]

Winners focus on fixing themselves, and losers focus on blaming external factors that they can't control. Americans should have a winner's mentality about this.

So, imagine we play the blame game instead of fixing ourselves. Remember when ebola broke out in Africa? What happens when the next pandemic comes from Africa instead of China? What good will the China blame game do us then?

^ ^ ^ That's you how we lose.

Now imagine we fix ourselves instead. We revamp our emergency procedures. We have logistics and emergency manufacturing in place. We change our healthcare system. Then the next pandemic comes from a place that's not China. And we'll be fully prepared!

^ ^ ^ That's how we win.

So in your view, next time this happens, let's say in Nigeria, we should maintain open travel, listen to the WHO (an entity which at best gave us bad advice and at worst flat out lied to us) all while investing billions and billions in into fixing our healthcare systems (most of the Western world already has free healthcare, so I'm not sure what exactly we're going to improve here). It seems to me that it would be much easier, cheaper, and beneficial for the whole planet to put in place a process where a viral outbreak is contained from the very beginning, and preferably prevent future outbreaks entirely (but in order for that to happen, we'd have "to blame" China for their continued practices like wet markets and wild animal farming, which according to you is what losers would do).

 

[superpunch]

So in your view, next time this happens, let's say in Nigeria, we should maintain open travel, listen to the WHO (an entity which at best gave us bad advice and at worst flat out lied to us) all while investing billions and billions in into fixing our healthcare systems (most of the Western world already has free healthcare, so I'm not sure what exactly we're going to improve here). It seems to me that it would be much easier, cheaper, and beneficial for the whole planet to put in place a process where a viral outbreak is contained from the very beginning, and preferably prevent future outbreaks entirely (but in order for that to happen, we'd have "to blame" China for their continued practices like wet markets and wild animal farming, which according to you is what losers would do).

South Korea is right next to China, didn't ban travel from China, and they're doing fine. What you're saying has its place in the talk but only deserves about 1% of the energy and discussion.

At the end of the day, China is a sovereign country and we can't control what another sovereign country does in their own country. We can change anything we want to change in our own country though. We have limited control over China's farming practices. We have complete control over our own emergency procedures, medical supply production, national logistics, healthcare system, and disease testing though. So, looking at our own country is where the real focus should be and where the real solutions are.

 

[Grenz]

South Korea is right next to China, didn't ban travel from China, and they're doing fine. What you're saying has its place in the talk but only deserves about 1% of the energy and discussion.

At the end of the day, China is a sovereign country and we can't control what another sovereign country does in their own country. We can change anything we want in our country though. So, looking at our own country is where the real focus should be and where the real solutions are.

They're not "fine". They themselves had thousands of cases, but managed to get everything under control by instating measures which we (Canada) have basically copied. We're not fine either. Nobody's 'fine'.

 

[superpunch]

They're not "fine". They themselves had thousands of cases, but managed to get everything under control by instating measures which we (Canada) have basically copied. We're not fine either. Nobody's 'fine'.

I was recently in South Korea. Everything is mostly fine. Meanwhile, back home in the US people are losing their jobs, being quarantined, stores/bars/restaurants shut down. The reason is that South Korea mass produced tests and can isolate the disease with surgical precision. The US did not and is not making enough tests to do that. Same with Canada, it sounds like. So, instead of targeting the virus with "surgical precision" they have to use a "carpet bombing" strategy and just shut everything down.

A very useful solution would be to have systems in place to quickly expedite FDA approval during emergencies, have a system in place to quickly mass produce medical equipment like masks and tests, and have a logistics chain in place to distribute these to where they're needed. We have control over that. Why was South Korea able to do this but we were not? The answers to that question is one way we can fix ourselves.

We only have limited control over China's farming practices; we can not change that -- only China can. Focusing on that does us no good when the next thing comes from Africa or some other place anyways. We need to focus on fixing ourselves.

 

[ShinkanPo]

As we're all in lockdown , it's time to consider where we went wrong, where we went right, and how we apply this knowledge going forward.

Here's some telling and relevant info from Canada:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/china-praises-canada-slams-u-s-over-coronavirus-response-1.4795270


China's stance was echoed by the WHO which declared a public health emergency while still advocating open travel to and from China.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...st-travel-bans-tied-to-coronavirus-backed-by/


These are from 7 weeks ago. China praised us for not blocking Chinese travel, instead relying on border screening to contain the spread. As I sit here on a Wednesday morning, in my basement, all non-essential services and businesses are closed. There are more cases daily. Our schools and daycares are closed until May 1st at least. The borders are for all intents and purposes shut down. So the question is: where did we go wrong?

It seems pretty obvious to me that maintaining travel to and from China was not the right advice. Practically the whole planet is now quarantined. In effect, we're doing the opposite of what we were praised for barely 2 months ago, and now every single health authority is telling us the current measures are necessary. What would have been better? To quarantine China in order to halt the spread to other countries, or to wait, and then quarantine literally the entire planet? What measures need to be put in place in the future in order to improve our response to global epidemics? Once we're on the other side of this, how do we manage China?

First we should colectively stop relying on China and we stop trusting them their duality is so obvious.

Stop buying things from China
I dont know how countries near China can do that some countries cant just increase their production of materials.

 

[Teppodama]

Literally all Hong Kong, Taiwan, and South Korea did was make lots of tests fast, close public schools for a month, and send out cell phone notifications of positive test cases. Anyone can do that. South Korea is a free, democratic country... We need to make sure in the future that we can and should do what they did.

The USA is currently in the process of quarantining and shutting down the entire country. Mass testing and cell phone notifications sound a bit less extreme to me.

How much isolation was enforced? How much was self-isolation and how much government mandated?

Literally all Hong Kong, Taiwan, and South Korea did was make lots of tests fast, close public schools for a month, and send out cell phone notifications of positive test cases. Anyone can do that. South Korea is a free, democratic country... We need to make sure in the future that we can and should do what they did.

The USA is currently in the process of quarantining and shutting down the entire country. Mass testing and cell phone notifications sound a bit less extreme to me.

Korea introduced more isolation initiatives than your simplistic statement makes it seem.

 

[superpunch]

How much isolation was enforced? How much was self-isolation and how much government mandated?

Nothing government mandated except maybe in Daegu where the worst of the outbreak was, not sure about that.

Korea introduced more isolation initiatives than your simplistic statement makes it seem.

I was there during the whole thing. No businesses closed down, no curfews, no one lost their jobs, and bars/ restaurants all stayed open. Hundreds of people walking on every block in cities with no "social distancing".

What they did and are doing is test everyone that might have the disease. Then they find out where anyone that tests positive has been in the past few weeks. Then they test anyone that's been in the same places. Then they do the same thing to anyone that tests positive... They put all this information online on google maps and send out emergency alert text messages so you can look and see if you've been to those places, then get yourself tested. Rinse, repeat. Meanwhile in the US, you can work in the same building or go to the same grocery store as someone that tested positive, you can't get tested. You can have symptoms, and maybe still can't get tested.

So, instead of limiting the spread of the virus with surgical precision like Korea is, we have to use a "carpet bombing" strategy and literally just shut everything down and keep everyone inside of their homes.

Why can South Korea test everyone but we can't? The answer to that question is how you fix this problem in the future. Blaming China isn't how you make yourself prepared in the future. Fixing our emergency procedures and healthcare system is how we make ourselves prepared in the future.

 

[Teppodama]

Nothing government mandated except maybe in Daegu where the worst of the outbreak was, not sure about that.


I was there during the whole thing. No businesses closed down, no curfews, no one lost their jobs, and bars/ restaurants all stayed open. Hundreds of people walking on every block in cities with no "social distancing".

What they did and are doing is test everyone that might have the disease. Then they find out where anyone that tests positive has been in the past few weeks. Then they test anyone that's been in the same places. Then they do the same thing to anyone that tests positive... They put all this information online on google maps and send out emergency alert text messages so you can look and see if you've been to those places, then get yourself tested. Rinse, repeat. Meanwhile in the US, you can work in the same building or go to the same grocery store as someone that tested positive, you can't get tested. You can have symptoms, and maybe still can't get tested.

So, instead of limiting the spread of the virus with surgical precision like Korea is, we have to use a "carpet bombing" strategy and literally just shut everything down and keep everyone inside of their homes.

Why can South Korea test everyone but we can't? The answer to that question is how you fix this problem in the future. Blaming China isn't how you make yourself prepared in the future. Fixing our emergency procedures and healthcare system is how we make ourselves prepared in the future.

I don't disagree with you that there are lessons to learn on how to address this issue. One of those lessons is less dependence on foreign nations for the supplies we require to address the issue. Another lesson is how adversely supply chains in general can be effected and what that may mean for your economy and population.

 

[Zazen]

Hopefully this will shut up some of the nationalists who thinks USA is number one and can do no wrong. We showed to the world that we aren't the powerhouse we once we were.

 

[The ScorpioN]

We learned that WHO is bought and paid for by the CCP.
"Theres a pandemic but dont you close your borders to the carriers you bigots!"
We learned China will use the West's fear of being called racist (gasp!) for their interests. This time the interest being not only tanking their own economy but taking the world along with em. Economic Samson option.