Lay and pray will be solved when fighters become truly well rounded.

[Killer Kadoogan]

there is no "dagestani wrestling"
like i said the other day, not every dagestani is a judo blackbelt who trains folkstyle in california
dagestani are mostly irrelevant outside of abdulmanaps clan

there are dagestanis fucking up MMA with their wrestling, there is definitely dagestani wrestling for MMA.

yes on the international stage, not much.

but to say that in due time, most MMA wrestlers will be able to stop superior wrestling is a noob ass take, one not rooted in any sort of actual experience or knowledge of wrestling.

 

[Tapioca Cold]

Dude, 'Well rounded' started with Frank Shamrock and I'm sure there's guys on here who would argue even earlier fighters were becoming well rounded in the late 90's early millennium. We've seen complete mma fighters for over a decade now easily.

 

[moreorless87]

Literally all that needs to happen to increase finishes by wrestlers and counter wrestlers is knees to the head of a grounded opponent.
Hell we might see a resurgence of people trying to take North South

I think that rule tends to work well both ways, it rewards dominant position but it punishes cheap wrestling tactics, generally I think it tends to result in more action both ways.

I would argue as well it also potentially removes the dangerous turtle position were fighters are depending on the ref for defence to back of the head strikes, its so vulnerable to knees that it forces fighters to fall back to open guard so turtle becomes a sign you are not intelligently defending.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

In what way? I support removing round breaks but I have a feeling that won't fly. Knees to the head is a rule that benefits grapplers more, isn't it? I think most people (me included) just want to see them do something besides hold the opponent down.

No, knees to the head does not necessarily benefit grapplers more. It can in certain situations, but it takes away the strategies that people find boring or against the spirit of the sport.

What it does is allows there to be less artificial positions. An example of that is indeed, a grappler being in north south position and landing knees.

But also someone sprawled on another guy, and landing knees, instead of having to either just stand up or risk spinning to their side (which in turn only opens up punches that are weaker than a knee to a head).

Or of course the thing where guys dive for a leg, put their knees on the ground, and keep their head low. Wrestlers who are "chain wrestling" against the cage are doing so knowing that there is no striking repercussion, because you can't knee them at all while they're down there, and you obviously are not allowed to hit to the back of the head.

So even if you stop their takedown, you are still forced to engage in grappling, since it's the only way to get out of there (wrestle and spin from the cage or threaten with some type of choke and hope they let go).


Asian MMA has knees to the head of a grounded opponent, and those promotions typically do not suffer much from lay and pray.

 

[Mike]

sure bud, in 2024 its the big bad conservatives trying to stamp out mma.. lol
lefty loons talking mma(the most right wing coded sport) is hilarious

Look if you think saying the country has a history of being conservative means I said the conservatives are doing something then just don't respond to my posts. I don't have time to teach you what words mean like we're in grade school. My bad since we're presumably all adults here I forget everything has to be spelled out and described in the simplest way possible so I won't have these little problems.

 

[moreorless87]

No, knees to the head does not necessarily benefit grapplers more. It can in certain situations, but it takes away the strategies that people find boring or against the spirit of the sport.

What it does is allows there to be less artificial positions. An example of that is indeed, a grappler being in north south position and landing knees.

But also someone sprawled on another guy, and landing knees, instead of having to either just stand up or risk spinning to their side (which in turn only opens up punches that are weaker than a knee to a head).

Or of course the thing where guys dive for a leg, put their knees on the ground, and keep their head low. Wrestlers who are "chain wrestling" against the cage are doing so knowing that there is no striking repercussion, because you can't knee them at all while they're down there, and you obviously are not allowed to hit to the back of the head.

So even if you stop their takedown, you are still forced to engage in grappling, since it's the only way to get out of there (wrestle and spin from the cage or threaten with some type of choke and hope they let go).

Asian MMA has knees to the head of a grounded opponent, and those promotions typically do not suffer much from lay and pray.

The cage is part of the issue there but I think its notable that Pride rarely had the kind of prolonged takedown atempts we see in modern MMA, it was much more the case of fighters having to time an attempt, ir succeeding or failing and then resetting.

Offencively knees do mean theres much more reason to look for more dominant positions, especially for side control, in that position the person on the bottom potentially has to try and get out ouf it more aggressive or indeed raise their arm to ward off knees, both of which can open them up to submissions.

We all known the north/south direct finishes but watch something like Barnett/Aleks to see how knees from side control can make sub openings.

 

[daniel san]

Caucas-style wrestling? Are you saying that the likes of Khabib and Islam were LNP wrestlers? Nothing will be solved, we're just in a phase when there are terribly boring LNP experts that have found some success. UFC in Tito/Randy era was also boring with lots of LNP, "dirty boxing", "he's pushing him against the fence!" type of styles. This will be solved when Merab and Belal gets KTFO by someone with good TDD. BW might be a bit of a lost cause though, bunch of wrestling manlets and few with enough power to knock someone out.

 

[Guy LeDouche]

Modern mma fighters are well rounded. You have to be to be successful these days.
The real problem here is the UFC prioritizing and promoting a striker heavy roster for the attention. I miss the days when the UFC actively went after too talent and not just grew it half baked in house.

 

[Left Hook Lacy]

No, that statement as a baseline is correct. You cannot rely on the ref to call stalling or intervene. You are in the position of disadvantage. You have to be the one to be pushing the pace to get back into the offensive side of the fight from the ground or otherwise. The expectation is never going to be on the person in a dominant position to provide openings for their opponent.

Stalling should be called more and intervention should occur in some cases. Both parties definitely need to work. However, it needs to be understood that if the person on top is actively working to maintain the pin and the person on bottom is making no effort to escape or attack (i.e. staying purely defensive or waiting out the round) then you can't punish the top player without actively rewarding someone's poor technique from bottom.

It's a complicated and annoying dilema

But in your example both guys are stalling. I'm saying if the top guy is stalling and the bottom guy is working, the bottom guy needs to be rewarded. It's fine if the ref doesn't do that. Then the judges can just give the round to the more active guy off his back.

 

[GreatSaintGuillotine]

But in your example both guys are stalling. I'm saying if the top guy is stalling and the bottom guy is working, the bottom guy needs to be rewarded. It's fine if the ref doesn't do that. Then the judges can just give the round to the more active guy off his back.

I mean in that example, yeah ref needs to do something but that is very rarely the case. And again, I just don't agree with awarding someone a round for failing to get off your back or launch a meaningful offense. If I'm holding you down in your guard and you throw up 5 subs but none are close and you let me pass...you should lose! You failed in your offense and didn't improve your position.

Like it sucks and it isn't satisfying but you just cant award that

 

[GrantB13]

Gaps in skill exist and will always exist because some people are naturally good at one area than others and it becomes their strength. Some guys are good at all areas but we don't have fighters almost ever who are elite at everything. This is also what keeps the fight game from being boring. Imagine a world where everyone is skilled equally in everything. There'd be no diversity.

 

[El Panteron]

It can improve. But someone has to be the better wrestler.

It's like they don't know wrestling has existed for thousands of years, literally, and somehow people are still taking each other down.

 

[CorninginChristianburg]

The so called "lay and pray" is already going to be solved coming this November.

12-6 ELBOWS!!!!

Being on the ground is about to be punished super hard, that could be after a successful TD where you end up in someone's guard, or a TD attempt that fails and you end on bottom. Fights are going to end fast when people are allowed to use 12-6 elbows, because they're essentially straight punches from top.

 

[skylolow]

A lot of fighters are very well rounded and get stuck on the bottom.

It is a lot easier to hold some one down than to get up from the bottom. One aspect isn't going to get better, they'll both get better, takedown and defense.

Over the last 5 to 8 years it feels as if more and more decisions are occurring. Feels like at times we are getting less engagement, more feeling out. I don't know the true numbers of finishes 18 years ago compared to today.

We all watch sports for entertainment. If the UFC starts to feel that decisions are becoming to much of the norm. you'll see them push for rules changes that will help change that. Every sport is adjusting rules for the entertainment of the fan through out their history's.

 

[wildchild88]

volk still lost the ground game completely, lost the fight, so that's not a great example.

on top of that, he has the money to fly in people to help him, specialists. theres maybe 2% of US MMA fighters than can do that.

make no sense.

That was an entertaining back forth fight though, and a fair example for me to use.

You don't think your average mma gym will have markedly improved wrestling in the next ten years, and then 20. Mma as a sport is growing massively at a local level, and there is money to be made around the world as a coach for these guys from poor Eastern bloc countries.

Grappling skill like that is going to spread around the world, quality of training in every discipline around the world has gone up massively in recent years.

Volk and Whittaker both have great defensive wrestling and they are from Australia ffs, there's no wrestling in Australia.

It can improve. But someone has to be the better wrestler.

Sure, there will still be some fighters who can blanket and hug, but it's not an epidemic that is going to ruin the sport into the future as many are claiming / whining about.

 

[HHJ]

That was an entertaining back forth fight though, and a fair example for me to use.

You don't think your average mma gym will have markedly improved wrestling in the next ten years, and then 20. Mma as a sport is growing massively at a local level, and there is money to be made around the world as a coach for these guys from poor Eastern bloc countries.

Grappling skill like that is going to spread around the world, quality of training in every discipline around the world has gone up massively in recent years.

Volk and Whittaker both have great defensive wrestling and they are from Australia ffs, there's no wrestling in Australia.



Sure, there will still be some fighters who can blanket and hug, but it's not an epidemic that is going to ruin the sport into the future as many are claiming / whining about.

Yes, nothing wrong with someone completley outwresting and emasculating someone who cant wrestle as good. I'm here for it

 

[Killer Kadoogan]

That was an entertaining back forth fight though, and a fair example for me to use.

You don't think your average mma gym will have markedly improved wrestling in the next ten years, and then 20. Mma as a sport is growing massively at a local level, and there is money to be made around the world as a coach for these guys from poor Eastern bloc countries.

Grappling skill like that is going to spread around the world, quality of training in every discipline around the world has gone up massively in recent years.

Volk and Whittaker both have great defensive wrestling and they are from Australia ffs, there's no wrestling in Australia.



Sure, there will still be some fighters who can blanket and hug, but it's not an epidemic that is going to ruin the sport into the future as many are claiming / whining about.

I know the average MMA gym will not get better at wrestling. Think man. All of youre examples amount to, well "there doing this over there" so it's bound to raise up the levels here!

If they ain't training with the best, they're not going to get better. Wrestling at BJJ / MMA gyms is notoriously garbage. Eastern bloc countries aren't training in US MMA gyms. Australia wrestling sucks. You don't know what you're talking about at all.