Kosen Judo (training report)

[sha]

I would love to train kosen judo !!

To be completely exact, you would have to say "I would love to train with judokas who focus their training on ground work because it is geared towards kosen competition rules".

It might seem like a small detail, but it's things like this that get you flamed on judo forums

 

[Ryo]

Actually laying in side mount (say what Hunt did to Fedor) would be mune gatame, and osae komi.

Traditionally the term Lnp is reffering mostly to wrestlers who take down and lay in guard, or half guard and do pretty much nothing. Sean Sherk, Mitsuhiro Ishida, Josh Koscheck, Rashad Evans, ect... these are classic examples. If your in side mount then your a in a much more dominant position and your most likely looking for a sub or to drop bombs. Most Lnp artist don't pass guard very often. That's why they are called lay and pray.

 

[georgejjr]

Traditionally the term Lnp is reffering mostly to wrestlers who take down and lay in guard, or half guard and do pretty much nothing. Sean Sherk, Mitsuhiro Ishida, Josh Koscheck, Rashad Evans, ect... these are classic examples. If your in side mount then your a in a much more dominant position and your most likely looking for a sub or to drop bombs. Most Lnp artist don't pass guard very often. That's why they are called lay and pray.

I've seen it been used both ways ... often to wrestlers who do a takedown and then lay in side mount without trying anything. Having said that, I dislike the term - I figure its up to the person on the bottom to improve their position, not the one on top (not that I'm prejudiced, coming from a wrestling/judo background :icon_chee). Its generally used by folks who hate grappling and want MMA to be mainly standup. And yeah, I know I introduced it into this thread - we all make mistakes :redface:

 

[Q mystic]

Yeah, I knew what you meant, I was just adding humor (perhaps not too successfully :redface. BTW, when I mentioned chokes and locks to my wrestling coach he went on about catch-as-can (what he called it) ... at the time I'd never heard of it and thought he was just talking about pro-wrestling. I doubt he knew any catch though, it was more an arguing point. In the end he decided doing judo wasn't ruining my wrestling, so it wasn't an issue. When I first started judo some of the mid-range belts (greens, blues) made negative comments about wrestling as well, but the instructors thought it was a good background for judo.

I kind of suspect there's a bit of that attitude in BJJ and judo towards Kosen ... the "why do you need to do anything more than what do" line of thinking.

I see. sry.:icon_lol:

I, myself, don't look at it like any attitude towards it, I just look at like if my coach were to say we are entering a Kosen tourny next year...I think he would look into the judo texts and to other ground fighting judoka to help prepare...and I'd be doing a 'kosen tourny'.

Whereas if I were to be coached by some good russians, I'd be doing more 'russian judo'.

I don't really consider lots of less rules newaza not judo. Its certainly not Olympic style judo but... still just judo.

 

[Q mystic]

but really be it judo , kosen judo and bjj if you did both or are open to everything about it wouldnt it make you better ??

Judo seems to pretty well include everything thats kosen, olympic, bjj, russian, brazilian...just all styles of judo imo, which came from jjj.

I know that might piss people off but I don't think it should. I would still call bjj, bjj and sambo, sambo. And they earned the differentiation.

But Kosen just seems like straight judo only focused on groundgame. Then, there is Olympic judo.....and so on.

 

[NinjaKilla187]

you don't know nothing about judo at all.

this are from judo kyohan, 1906 books http://www.jigorokano.it/Cartella Yokoyama/Indice.html

katame waza and shime waza

Yokoyama - Judo Kyohan
Yokoyama - Judo Kyohan

this are 3 very old video with Tsunetane oda showing newaza (guard, halfguard, all pins,choke and locks)

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

tsunetane oda was the man that developed more newaza, the inventor of triangle choke (sankaku jime) and the man that teached to all the best kosen guys.


And if you want some kodokan judo guard work just look at this video of kashiwazaki and patrix roux

YouTube - Judo - Hairi Kata (sweep) - Kashiwazaki
YouTube - Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki
YouTube - Patrick Roux : Hairi Kata

Yeah, I've got Judo Kyohan in English, which is currently available from Amazon in reprint, BTW. I don't see any discussion of do-osae in it either. Many experienced Judoka don't even know what do-osae means.

I still don't consider it to be a traditional or historic Judo technique to be using the guard position as an OFFENSIVE tactical position, a base of operations, a preferred position from which to launch a variety of attacks while defending oneself.

The books and video you posted, while excellent reference material, show basically what I described previously, very brief periods using back positioning while setting up sub attempts or transitioning to other techniques. Which I don't consider to be guard fighting.

 

[YeahBee]

very brief periods using back positioning while setting up sub attempts or transitioning to other techniques. Which I don't consider to be guard fighting.

waht is guard fighting then? jsut defending?

 

[Nickynoneck]

To be completely exact, you would have to say "I would love to train with judokas who focus their training on ground work because it is geared towards kosen competition rules".

It might seem like a small detail, but it's things like this that get you flamed on judo forums

dude dont be so fucking anal .

 

[Nickynoneck]

Judo seems to pretty well include everything thats kosen, olympic, bjj, russian, brazilian...just all styles of judo imo, which came from jjj.

I know that might piss people off but I don't think it should. I would still call bjj, bjj and sambo, sambo. And they earned the differentiation.

But Kosen just seems like straight judo only focused on groundgame. Then, there is Olympic judo.....and so on.

exactly theres only so many way to grapple its just how many aspects you train it . i have been doing olympic style judo for almost 2 years iam gonna start bjj soon to supplement my ground game because its all ground work ( which my club really right now focuses on ). And if i could do sambo i would .

its not 1993 anymore theres no need argue about bjj/judo whatever its common sense now .

 

[Q mystic]

exactly theres only so many way to grapple its just how many aspects you train it . i have been doing olympic style judo for almost 2 years iam gonna start bjj soon to supplement my ground game because its all ground work ( which my club really right now focuses on ). And if i could do sambo i would .

its not 1993 anymore theres no need argue about bjj/judo whatever its common sense now .

I like the way georgejjr looks at in wrestling/jacket wrestling. Except the rules make diffs like.. olympic judo, to me, resembles oly wrestling as much as bjj due to the game for instance.

Its weird tho..if olympic judo does mostly stand....kosen judo mostly ground...russian/euro judo with a wrestling/sambo style and brazilian/portuguese judo doing a bjj/kosen style...some doing straight bjj and others opting straight sambo...some just focusing on this ryu or that...

....ok, I just wanna know what in the hell are regular judoka doing.. if there are any anymore.:icon_lol:

But, yes...if you do say Kosen judo, I do assume different than oly judo newaza. No fret.

Not that its better tho:icon_chee I think Oly judo is the best, but I just call it judo. And that makes me feel cool.

 

[topo]

I still don't consider it to be a traditional or historic Judo technique to be using the guard position as an OFFENSIVE tactical position, a base of operations, a preferred position from which to launch a variety of attacks while defending oneself.

Not correct. There has been plenty of well known judokas whos guard is/was offensive position.
Also it was very favoured position in Kosen competitions.

 

[Kforcer]

There is at least one very, very famous and very revered and respected Kosen judo blackbelt--Yuki Nakai. Kosen judo was the base of his submission style, though he is now also a blackbelt in Brazilian jiu jitsu as well. And if you watch Nakai in his MMA career--prior to his studies of BJJ--his submission game is excellent.

So the idea that there is no Kosen "lineage" or that people who call themselves Kosen judo are just making stuff up is unfounded.

 

[Nickynoneck]

I like the way georgejjr looks at in wrestling/jacket wrestling. Except the rules make diffs like.. olympic judo, to me, resembles oly wrestling as much as bjj due to the game for instance.

Its weird tho..if olympic judo does mostly stand....kosen judo mostly ground...russian/euro judo with a wrestling/sambo style and brazilian/portuguese judo doing a bjj/kosen style...some doing straight bjj and others opting straight sambo...some just focusing on this ryu or that...

....ok, I just wanna know what in the hell are regular judoka doing.. if there are any anymore.:icon_lol:

But, yes...if you do say Kosen judo, I do assume different than oly judo newaza. No fret.

Not that its better tho:icon_chee I think Oly judo is the best, but I just call it judo. And that makes me feel cool.

JUDO IS ALL GOOD ,

 

[Calibur]

There is at least one very, very famous and very revered and respected Kosen judo blackbelt--Yuki Nakai. Kosen judo was the base of his submission style, though he is now also a blackbelt in Brazilian jiu jitsu as well. And if you watch Nakai in his MMA career--prior to his studies of BJJ--his submission game is excellent.

So the idea that there is no Kosen "lineage" or that people who call themselves Kosen judo are just making stuff up is unfounded.

I just found this out tonight. I flat out asked my instructor where he got his belt from. Most of the Japanese guys got it through Nakai, but Nakai never really officially trained BJJ.

He started as Kosen Judo. Fought Rickson, decided to cross train with Enson Inoue sometimes, studied BJJ on his own and did well in international comps, and than Carlos Gracie gave him an honorary black belt so Carlos could move the IBJJF into Japan.

I heard this from one of Nakai's black belts. I think it's ironic that the father of Japanese BJJ isn't actually a BJJ guy at all, but a Kosen guy. He has no BJJ coach, and most of the Japanese bjj black belts can be linked to him.

 

[makoa26]

I just found this out tonight. I flat out asked my instructor where he got his belt from. Most of the Japanese guys got it through Nakai, but Nakai never really officially trained BJJ.

He started as Kosen Judo. Fought Rickson, decided to cross train with Enson Inoue sometimes, studied BJJ on his own and did well in international comps, and than Carlos Gracie gave him an honorary black belt so Carlos could move the IBJJF into Japan.

I heard this from one of Nakai's black belts. I think it's ironic that the father of Japanese BJJ isn't actually a BJJ guy at all, but a Kosen guy. He has no BJJ coach, and most of the Japanese bjj black belts can be linked to him.

Wow, good read. So your instructor has lineage from Nakai?

 

[furdog]

So how do you explain
1) that judo practicioners all around the word trained newaza long before being exposed to BJJ (although I admit not many reached the same technical levels as brazilians)

This is not a BJJ vs Judo argument. I don't care about that argument. What I am saying is that Kosen Judo died out, and now probably the majority of people who say they practice Kosen Judo had to have it revived through other arts.

How do I explain that judo practitioners trained newaza before BJJ? I dunno, why do I have to explain that? I have no argument against it. It's true. Judo includes groundwork.

2) that judo includes techniques not seen in BJJ ? (specifically, pins).

No argument there either.

I don't think that kosen judo is a completely different style of judo than kodokan judo. Just a different way of training, and putting the emphasis on other things. So where I disagree with your argument, is that when you say they got their groudwork from BJJ or Catch, I say they got it from... judo.

Not my argument.

 

[furdog]

Whoever says that Kosen Judo is not "real" or doesn't have a true lienage anymore, realy is retarded. You can't argue with facts for fucks sake. Go to Kyoto University and tell them that they are not "real" Kosen Judo, that they don't exist. Or go to Tokyo, to the Kosen Judo club there, and tell them the same. I'm sure their reaction will be pretty interesting...

If I went to Kyoto University and asked whether their instructors had direct lineage from the old school Kosen Judo practitioners, there probably wouldn't be many, if any, because the sport basically died out. You would also find a majority of the instructors and practitioners cross-trained in Kodokan Judo and other arts to revive the techniques of Kosen Judo.

 

[furdog]

There is at least one very, very famous and very revered and respected Kosen judo blackbelt--Yuki Nakai. Kosen judo was the base of his submission style, though he is now also a blackbelt in Brazilian jiu jitsu as well. And if you watch Nakai in his MMA career--prior to his studies of BJJ--his submission game is excellent.

So the idea that there is no Kosen "lineage" or that people who call themselves Kosen judo are just making stuff up is unfounded.

Good thing nobody put forward that "idea."

 

[Kforcer]

Good thing nobody put forward that "idea."

Yuki Nakai was a Kosen judo blackbelt before the BJJ craze...so the idea that Kosen judo was resurrected artificially following the rise of BJJ is false.

 

[Kforcer]

I just found this out tonight. I flat out asked my instructor where he got his belt from. Most of the Japanese guys got it through Nakai, but Nakai never really officially trained BJJ.

He started as Kosen Judo. Fought Rickson, decided to cross train with Enson Inoue sometimes, studied BJJ on his own and did well in international comps, and than Carlos Gracie gave him an honorary black belt so Carlos could move the IBJJF into Japan.

I heard this from one of Nakai's black belts. I think it's ironic that the father of Japanese BJJ isn't actually a BJJ guy at all, but a Kosen guy. He has no BJJ coach, and most of the Japanese bjj black belts can be linked to him.

Makes sense, considering almost every major Japanese BJJ'ist in MMA has Nakai as a trainer.