Kosen Judo (training report)

[Ryo]

At least some of the current "Kosen" practitioners seem to be working on fighting from the guard and that, I don't see anywhere in "Judo on the Ground", or other historic manuals and I believe it to be a BJJ innovation.

You've got to be kidding me? I can't believe the things I'm reading on here. There are ton's of old Judo books with many techniques for fighting from the guard. Have you not watched the Kosen Judo vid's on Youtube? They're filled with fighting from the guard. And there are also clips of Kanae Hirata doing triangle chokes and omaplata's from the guard. It is certainly not some "New" BJJ innovation. They might put more emphasis on that position then any other MA. That I might agree with. But pulling guard and working off the back was extremely common in Kosen Judo matches. It was such a common thing in even Kodokan Judo infact, that Kano made it illegal. So that obviously leads me to beleive they were more then competent in that position.

 

[Equilibrium]

YouTube - Kyoto Judo Highlight

If this is the Kyoto Kosen Judo school, and theyy're specialty is Newaza (ground for non Judo guys), then why is there no display of newaza in this clip? Not being a smartass, it's just always bugged me with this clip...


BTW the Uchimata at 2:00 is top 5 of all time!!!

Can someone edit that throw out of the vid by any chance and post it seperate?

Because that's a promotional vid. You want it as flashy as possible. To attract people.
You're not gonna go through pin transitions when you're trying to advertise. We grapplers may appreciate it but the common man would just go "wtf??" walk away and start doing TKD.

 

[georgejjr]

At least some of the current "Kosen" practitioners seem to be working on fighting from the guard and that, I don't see anywhere in "Judo on the Ground", or other historic manuals and I believe it to be a BJJ innovation.

No, BJJ vastly expanded fighting from guard, but it's been around a long time ... very simple guard work for instance is found in medieval documents.

Its always been part of judo, just not a big part. Pick up some of the 50's and 60's judo books (like "Judo in Action") and you'll see sankaku jime (triangle choke) and ude hishigi ude gatame (knee lock) being shown from guard. The difference is that for the most part, judo groundwork had just a few simple sweeps from guard, and had very little setup for the triangle in guard ... if you were dumb enough to reach forward when in someone's guard they'd get you with sankaku, but very few judo players would set it up . It was more an opportunistic thing. Sort of like most BJJ throwing - same throws as in judo, but opportunistic but with very little setup. Whereas judo throwing and BJJ submissions are all about setup.

 

[Ryo]

No.. That certainly would not apply to the Kosen schools. If you've got a schools of Judo that practices primarily groundfighting about 80%, why in the world would you espect their setups to not be solid? It's rediculous realy. If you specialize in primarily groundfighting, then your gonna eventually figure out setups. I mean, what good is a sub without a setup? If your going against another person who specializes in Newaza. If you watch any of the Kosen videos, no one is dumbly or clumisly excecuting these techniques. Hirata shows very detailed setups for each and every technique. This even apply's to Kodokan Judo specialist. Just watch Kashiwazaki's videos... each and every technique is explained in great detail.

 

[georgejjr]

No.. That certainly would not apply to the Kosen schools. If you've got a schools of Judo that practices primarily groundfighting about 80%, why in the world would you espect their setups to not be solid? It's rediculous realy. If you specialize in primarily groundfighting, then your gonna eventually figure out setups. I mean, what good is a sub without a setup? If your going against another person who specializes in Newaza. If you watch any of the Kosen videos, no one is dumbly or clumisly excecuting these techniques. Hirata shows very detailed setups for each and every technique. This even apply's to Kodokan Judo specialist. Just watch Kashiwazaki's videos... each and every technique is explained in great detail.

Actually its changing in regular judo now too, and in BJJ wrt throwing, probably because of the amount of cross training going on with BJJ (for instance, we have a BJJ instructor come once a week to teach ne-waza at the judo club, and I go teach throwing at his club). I was just speaking about mid-age judo (from the 60's to the 21st century), since that's what I'm most familiar with. You see it at the top levels too, guys like Roger Gracie studying judo and teaching newaza at the Budokwai in England, guys like olympic judo medalist Ray Stevens getting a BJJ black belt (from Roger Gracie).

I don't know much about Kosen, but my assumption is that if they spent most of their time on the ground, they'd have good setups ... there's nothing magic about BJJ ground or judo standing, its always been a question of time and effort spent throwing and doing submissions. Its the same reason wrestlers have better no-gi takedowns than judoka, and judoka have better gi takedowns than wrestlers ... you get could at what you do (at least as if you do it in a full out way, which judo, BJJ, wrestling, Kosen etc all do).

 

[Mohawk79]

You've got to be kidding me? I can't believe the things I'm reading on here. There are ton's of old Judo books with many techniques for fighting from the guard. Have you not watched the Kosen Judo vid's on Youtube? They're filled with fighting from the guard. And there are also clips of Kanae Hirata doing triangle chokes and omaplata's from the guard. It is certainly not some "New" BJJ innovation. They might put more emphasis on that position then any other MA. That I might agree with. But pulling guard and working off the back was extremely common in Kosen Judo matches. It was such a common thing in even Kodokan Judo infact, that Kano made it illegal. So that obviously leads me to beleive they were more then competent in that position.

Yeah, I'm in complete agreement with you. And Renzo Gracie also talked about Kosen Judo and the schools of Fusen Ryu Jujutsu that also favored and practiced groundfighting techniques in his book "Mastering Jujitsu". He discussed the origin of guardwork used by the Fusen Ryu practicioners and how they were actually allowed to pull guard in their matches against Jigoro Kano's Judo students. And if I remember correctly Jigoro Kano also kept in mind the importance of groundwork because of the skill of the Fusen Ryu representatives and how they actually beat almost all of the Judoka's that competed against them. He actually goes into a lot of detail the evolution of Jujitsu and Judo and Jigoro's outlook on groundfighting techniques.

 

[NinjaKilla187]

You've got to be kidding me? I can't believe the things I'm reading on here. There are ton's of old Judo books with many techniques for fighting from the guard. Have you not watched the Kosen Judo vid's on Youtube? They're filled with fighting from the guard. And there are also clips of Kanae Hirata doing triangle chokes and omaplata's from the guard. It is certainly not some "New" BJJ innovation. They might put more emphasis on that position then any other MA. That I might agree with. But pulling guard and working off the back was extremely common in Kosen Judo matches. It was such a common thing in even Kodokan Judo infact, that Kano made it illegal. So that obviously leads me to beleive they were more then competent in that position.

There is lots of video and old books that show techniques for fighting from the back, but most of them are relatively transitory in nature. There is no history in Judo, that I know of, of using a guard position as a fighting stance/position. In any system of competition that includes pin for Ippon (which Kosen has), you are not going to get really sophisticated positional grappling.

I concur that every submission I have ever seen in BJJ came from Judo including triangles and omoplatas, but the positional grappling of BJJ is something unique. Pin for Ippon makes the guard game impossible. I don't think most players consider being on your back for a second or two while in a scramble or attempting to set up a submission attempt "guard fighting".

 

[makoa26]

Pin for Ippon makes the guard game impossible. I don't think most players consider being on your back for a second or two while in a scramble or attempting to set up a submission attempt "guard fighting".

How does pin for ippon make the guard game impossible? The pin is only counted when not in guard.
guard=no pin

 

[Cirno]

How does pin for ippon make the guard game impossible? The pin is only counted when not in guard.
guard=no pin

Pin for Ippon makes players (especially those with weak newaza) wary of working off their backs. Unlike BJJ, which only gives cumulative points off of dominant positions, judoka have to worry about losing completely when stuck under a pin.

It's like having to fight in a wrestling match and a BJJ match at the same time, having to defend against both subs and pins.

 

[Ryo]

There is lots of video and old books that show techniques for fighting from the back, but most of them are relatively transitory in nature. There is no history in Judo, that I know of, of using a guard position as a fighting stance/position. In any system of competition that includes pin for Ippon (which Kosen has), you are not going to get really sophisticated positional grappling.

Well then you realy need to read up on the history of Kosen Judo. Because pulling guard and fighting off the back, as I said... was extrememly common. If they were not competent in this position, there would be no reason to even pull guard.

I concur that every submission I have ever seen in BJJ came from Judo including triangles and omoplatas, but the positional grappling of BJJ is something unique. Pin for Ippon makes the guard game impossible. I don't think most players consider being on your back for a second or two while in a scramble or attempting to set up a submission attempt "guard fighting".

How does the pin make the guard game impossible? You can't pin from guard. And seeing as how Kosen guys were primarily groundfighters being on your back at some point was almost deffinately gonna happen. Many Kosen matches went on for very long periods of time. Just like old BJJ matches. Do you realy think that in a grappling match that long, your not gonna spend alot of time on your back? Come on.

 

[makoa26]

Pin for Ippon makes players (especially those with weak newaza) wary of working off their backs. Unlike BJJ, which only gives cumulative points off of dominant positions, judoka have to worry about losing completely when stuck under a pin.

It's like having to fight in a wrestling match and a BJJ match at the same time, having to defend against both subs and pins.

I didn't think of it that way and I see your point, but ninjakilla's statement that a pin for the win makes the guard game impossible is a little off center if the guard isn't considered a pinning combination. I'm more inclined to say that time limits on the ground is a bigger factor in the development and skill of the guard game rather than pins.

 

[makoa26]

sorry, double post

 

[georgejjr]

I didn't think of it that way and I see your point, but ninjakilla's statement that a pin for the win makes the guard game impossible is a little off center if the guard isn't considered a pinning combination. I'm more inclined to say that time limits on the ground is a bigger factor in the development and skill of the guard game rather than pins.

It certainly doesn't make it impossible, but it makes it more risky. If someone can pass your guard and then win by holding you down for 25 seconds (judo) or getting your shoulders pinned (wrestling) then you have to be much more careful in your sweep attempts than if they have to sub you to win once they've passed guard. Holding someone down or pinning them is considerably easier than subbing. Look at a lot of the lay'n'pray (hate the term, but you get what I mean) in MMA ... in wrestling or judo much of those would be fight enders.

 

[Ryo]

What's considered lnp in MMA (laying in somebodys guard and doing nothing) would not be a fight ender in a Judo match. In Olympic rules you would just get stood up. But you know that.

And the debate about whether the guard was used extensively in Kosen Judo is a stupid one anyway as there are too many historical facts (and common sense) to support that it was.

 

[Thalion]

There is lots of video and old books that show techniques for fighting from the back, but most of them are relatively transitory in nature. There is no history in Judo, that I know of, of using a guard position as a fighting stance/position. In any system of competition that includes pin for Ippon (which Kosen has), you are not going to get really sophisticated positional grappling.

I concur that every submission I have ever seen in BJJ came from Judo including triangles and omoplatas, but the positional grappling of BJJ is something unique. Pin for Ippon makes the guard game impossible. I don't think most players consider being on your back for a second or two while in a scramble or attempting to set up a submission attempt "guard fighting".

you don't know nothing about judo at all.

this are from judo kyohan, 1906 books http://www.jigorokano.it/Cartella Yokoyama/Indice.html

katame waza and shime waza

Yokoyama - Judo Kyohan
Yokoyama - Judo Kyohan

this are 3 very old video with Tsunetane oda showing newaza (guard, halfguard, all pins,choke and locks)

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

tsunetane oda was the man that developed more newaza, the inventor of triangle choke (sankaku jime) and the man that teached to all the best kosen guys.


And if you want some kodokan judo guard work just look at this video of kashiwazaki and patrix roux

YouTube - Judo - Hairi Kata (sweep) - Kashiwazaki
YouTube - Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki
YouTube - Patrick Roux : Hairi Kata

 

[georgejjr]

What's considered lnp in MMA (laying in somebodys guard and doing nothing) would not be a fight ender in a Judo match. In Olympic rules you would just get stood up. But you know that.

And the debate about whether the guard was used extensively in Kosen Judo is a stupid one anyway as there are too many historical facts (and common sense) to support that it was.

Actually laying in side mount (say what Hunt did to Fedor) would be mune gatame, and osae komi.

 

[Nickynoneck]

the guy who trained the gracies was doing judo when the rules where different the older judo rules were once it hit the ground you stay there .

then kano changed the rules to preserve the throwing aspect of judo and that when kosen judo was born , ironically thats when the guy who trained the gracies left to go to brazil so he trained them in what he knew .


I would love to train kosen judo !!

 

[Nickynoneck]

but really be it judo , kosen judo and bjj if you did both or are open to everything about it wouldnt it make you better ??

 

[YeahBee]

Pin for Ippon makes players (especially those with weak newaza) wary of working off their backs. Unlike BJJ, which only gives cumulative points off of dominant positions, judoka have to worry about losing completely when stuck under a pin.

It's like having to fight in a wrestling match and a BJJ match at the same time, having to defend against both subs and pins.

Or it creates one of the best guards around because you cannot let them pass

for "regular" judo (together with rules favoring stand up) it has lead to a great turtle guard

Look at Aoki, sure he may have incorporated the rubber guard after reading some bravo but surely the gist of his game was there befroe he started learning BJJ? I mean wasn't he handed BJJ belts for winning BJJ comps?

 

[YeahBee]

If you get pinned for 25 seconds by a judoka you are in no position to sweep or sub him, it takes alot out of you, you are ripe for the sub