Kosen Judo (training report)

[Q mystic]

Try reading the text instead of just looking at pictures or spouting your own hare-brained ideas around.

link: History

Note Kosen's history and continued competition with no regulations on newaza. Then also note: "The first head of our Judo Club was Prof. TAKAGI Hideo at the Faculty of Science, who practiced judo, particularly Newaza judo, in Kosen competition." After the second world war, when judo was allowed to be practiced again in Japan, instruction in newaza judo continued from a practitioner of the old Kosen style competition.

link: sensei6

Kosen judo was not widely practiced. But it never died out either. Its art and instruction and competition continued throughout Japan's history. As you may well know, Maeda was a Kosen judoka sent to teach in Brazil.

Now I'm not denying that there is a possibility that some practitioners today are cross-training their ground skills with some BJJ. That's entirely possible. But it would be wrong to state that Kosen judo completely died out and that its instruction was no more. Check out some the Kosen Judo DVDs that have been released. They show some old time Kosen Judokas training and teaching in the Kosen style. And don't tell me that they crosstrained in BJJ when BJJ was in its infancy when these men were growing up.

Seems to me like he was careful not to say that Kosen died out Ryouboard.

Seems he was pretty close in everything and the standout being that kosen was invigorated due to bjj.


I'd like to ask, does kosen take to eye the 'wrestling' involved in Oly judo? Or do they focus on what resembles bjj?

What are the scores in Kosen? If you can win with a holdown(pin), I'm all aboard. The appreciation of that just seems to go sooo unoticed it blows me away.


If the score ain't a WIN, then the learning curve has been littered with thinking ahead. 1 reason why Kosen, or bjj, will never have top control down like judo/wrestling does.

 

[Mohawk79]

Because from what I know, there are very few if any actual Kosen Judo practitioners or instructors that actually descended from that lineage.



That has nothing to do with any of this. Who cares where BJJ came from? I am saying that Kosen Judo was basically something nearly eliminated and now the people who practice it have instruction from people who've cross trained.



That's not what I did at all. I am in fact a judoka and believe there are many judoka with great ground work.

There is effectively no Kosen Judo at all... there is only Judo cross trainers reviving an old name.


Because "they" haven't been doing it. And by "they" I mean all judoka. Kosen Judo was nearly dead in the 1980's. You know a partial history of Judo and not the full thing--Kosen Judo was practiced at one time, long ago, but even in Japan, catch styles and BJJ are likely to have more practitioners than straight descendants of the Kosen school.

So you're telling me what I do and do not know? I've read plenty about Judo, and BJJ and the origins and who was involved, and I also practice Judo as well. But you're attitude makes it seem as though everyone here doesn't know what they are talking about, and you have some kind of insider information no one knows about.

And in fact, where BJJ comes from has EVERYTHING to do with this, because you are basically saying that Kosen practictioners are just Judo players that learned BJJ and then incorporated that into their particular style of Judo and called it Kosen Judo. To say that there is no one out there now practicing a pure lineage of Kosen Judo in Japan to me is just absurd. No disrespect, but you have some valid points, but you have some that don't really seem to make much sense.

 

[Q mystic]

This thread has plenty vets in judo from judoinfo.com

USA Judo recognize Kosen? - JudoForum.com


and its long but it gets better and better.

Kosen, it seems was 50/50. Thank god. And would mean that I'm Kosen as well as Oly style and Kodakan.:icon_conf


Love the love for judo tho fellas. Awesome.

 

[furdog]

Try reading the text instead of just looking at pictures or spouting your own hare-brained ideas around.

Is this how you talk to people and expect a response? You must not do this in real life. Don't expect a discussion from me.

 

[furdog]

So you're telling me what I do and do not know?

Yes, of course. In an argument between two people that is not simply a misunderstanding of the definitions used, the discussion is based on a seeming contradiction between two people's opinions. One would say his knowledge is right and the other would say his knowledge is right. If they are in direct contradiction, there is no possibility that both could be right.

I've read plenty about Judo, and BJJ and the origins and who was involved, and I also practice Judo as well. But you're attitude makes it seem as though everyone here doesn't know what they are talking about, and you have some kind of insider information no one knows about.

Sure, I guess I do. I don't want to say the numbers he gave me because this was some informal online conversation which is vague to me. He said that his father or grandfather was one of like a handful of Kosen practitioners left (and they trained leglocks which was interesting) and he believed he was one of the only direct-lineage Kosen practitioners in the US.

And in fact, where BJJ comes from has EVERYTHING to do with this, because you are basically saying that Kosen practictioners are just Judo players that learned BJJ and then incorporated that into their particular style of Judo and called it Kosen Judo.

Not. I'm saying there are basically no Kosen practitioners whatsoever. That people living today who want to call themselves Kosen practitioners are those Judoka who re-learned groundwork techniques from other arts. Kodokan Judo became basically the only type of Judo for a long time period.

To say that there is no one out there now practicing a pure lineage of Kosen Judo in Japan to me is just absurd. No disrespect, but you have some valid points, but you have some that don't really seem to make much sense.

Well, I didn't say no one. But its probably extremely close to no one. Of course I wouldn't be able to give you a correct number without a really good investigation, right? But the paragraph written above about the American who's father brought Kosen to the US I consider a very valuable source. I think he was on judo-info and I will try to find it...

 

[Q mystic]

The thing I 'suspect' is..when speaking to vet judoka....saying 'kosen' can often look like you are trying to give too much credit to something not really of revelance and pretending it isn't already just judo.


Listen to the talk of sambo and bjj already.

Kano is who created what we all do. He modernized this style of combat. Its really all just judo.

My old coach said it best after UFC 1&2. Thats all just judo. But he sure was happy to give credence where its due in I learned this from BJJ. (1994)

Same as what he said about Sambo, prior to UFC. Its just judo. But they got good ankle locks and work heavy throws.(1994)



When I heard this stuff, I didn't just think judo. I understood as a judoka that he does definitely work a different and respective style of it. One that seemed to me to have enuff respect to call it a name of its own.


I am SURE that Helio, or whoever learned from judo, was taught much much more than techs. There, he learned what was most efficient for him. Seems he was a scrapper too. His style from judo he arrived to, and kept in a small community for a while, and hit the right combat athletes at the right time. Thats BJJ and thats very very impressive. Had judo really known of this earlier(and that would have to have been quickly, as look at how many fight fans they educated) they could easily have stopped it. They didn't and bjj has become a runaway freighttrain. Only judoka that like to fight can stop the insanity.

Only some judo fan like me only that much older could demo the sambo movemnt from an mma fans pov. Believe me, in 1989 us judoka and wrestlers rasslin were always talkin mma.:icon_lol:

Kosen aint there yet, it seems to me.

 

[FLMikeATT]

I don't really care for the argument, but these vids are a must see for anyone who grapples in a gi:

Kosen Judo Vol.1

Kosen Judo Vol.2

Kosen Judo 3

Kosen Judo 4

Kosen Judo 5


WAR Kosen Judo.

 

[ryouboard]

Is this how you talk to people and expect a response? You must not do this in real life. Don't expect a discussion from me.

I really don't expect a discussion from a guy that can't read text that is longer than a couple lines. So don't worry, I'm not expecting you to say anything remotely intelligent in anyway.

I've already stated my case. You haven't shown any sort of evidence to back up your claim.

You can go to Japan and ask the Kosen Judo instructors there themselves, how many of them had to go to Brazil and learn BJJ or go to pro wrestling and learn catch wrestling. After all, we know you know more than any other Judoka in the world, including all Kosen competitors.

 

[Q mystic]

I don't really care for the argument, but these vids are a must see for anyone who grapples in a gi:

Kosen Judo Vol.1

Kosen Judo Vol.2

Kosen Judo 3

Kosen Judo 4

Kosen Judo 5


WAR Kosen Judo.

edit.

 

[georgejjr]

Kano is who created what we all do. He modernized this style of combat. Its really all just judo.

My old coach said it best after UFC 1&2. Thats all just judo. But he sure was happy to give credence where its due in I learned this from BJJ. (1994)

On the other hand, when I started cross training in judo, my wrestling coach said that judo was just wrestling with a jacket on :icon_twis

 

[Q mystic]

On the other hand, when I started cross training in judo, my wrestling coach said that judo was just wrestling with a jacket on :icon_twis

Dayum. That sucks. No mention or word of subs even??

LMAO. Yep, sounds like a wrestler.:icon_lol:



Sorry, what I meant in your quote of mine was that us who all really know they come from just ju-jutsu(via bjj, sambo or judo). Kano modernized it. I don't see many going back to straight forms of earlier ju-jutsu.



You wrestlers weren't from there.

Russian judo, Brazilian judo...

 

[Ryo]

Whoever says that Kosen Judo is not "real" or doesn't have a true lienage anymore, realy is retarded. You can't argue with facts for fucks sake. Go to Kyoto University and tell them that they are not "real" Kosen Judo, that they don't exist. Or go to Tokyo, to the Kosen Judo club there, and tell them the same. I'm sure their reaction will be pretty interesting...

And Kosen Judo has always favoured groundfighting. That is the epitome of the Kosen rules tournaments. Newaza.

 

[sha]

I'm saying there are basically no Kosen practitioners whatsoever. That people living today who want to call themselves Kosen practitioners are those Judoka who re-learned groundwork techniques from other arts. Kodokan Judo became basically the only type of Judo for a long time period.

So how do you explain
1) that judo practicioners all around the word trained newaza long before being exposed to BJJ (although I admit not many reached the same technical levels as brazilians)
2) that judo includes techniques not seen in BJJ ? (specifically, pins).

I don't think that kosen judo is a completely different style of judo than kodokan judo. Just a different way of training, and putting the emphasis on other things. So where I disagree with your argument, is that when you say they got their groudwork from BJJ or Catch, I say they got it from... judo.

When I trained in Kyoto I didn't see any technique that was not part of judo. It's just that they had more training on the ground, so they did them better than the average judoka.

 

[Q mystic]

Whoever says that Kosen Judo is not "real" or doesn't have a true lienage anymore, realy is retarded. You can't argue with facts for fucks sake. Go to Kyoto University and tell them that they are not "real" Kosen Judo, that they don't exist. Or go to Tokyo, to the Kosen Judo club there, and tell them the same. I'm sure their reaction will be pretty interesting...

And Kosen Judo has always favoured groundfighting. That is the epitome of the Kosen rules tournaments. Newaza.

Of course its real.

What are the scores in Kosen judo tournies?

 

[POedBoy]

To add more fuel to the fire:

Last October, Our club was given a seminar by Hal Sharp, and Toshikazu Okada. Sensei Okada knows a thing or two about kosen judo.... Master Tsunetane Oda

I already forgot the major argument(s) going on in this thread -- too lazy to reread -- but Kosen is real as far as I'm concerned. Maybe in 2008, the current practitioners interact more with BJJ players, I don't know. But, I mean, essentially the two have enough commonality that it wouldn't be a surprise. I mean hell... "modern" olympic judo and bjj have so much in common as it is( IMO... I know many here will dissagree with that statement. )

I don't see how that takes anything away from the Kosen legitimacy though. Reading, seeing numerous videos on the web, and having a chance to train with someone who was in the thick of it all...

I guess what I'm saying is-- maybe its a bit silly or naive to think, that all the techniques and philosophy just up and dissappeared with Hirata's death, and now its just olympic judo using bjj behind the scenes, but under the "Kosen" banner. I don't buy that.

Just my 2 centavos...

 

[NinjaKilla187]

To add more fuel to the fire:

Last October, Our club was given a seminar by Hal Sharp, and Toshikazu Okada. Sensei Okada knows a thing or two about kosen judo.... Master Tsunetane Oda

I already forgot the major argument(s) going on in this thread -- too lazy to reread -- but Kosen is real as far as I'm concerned. Maybe in 2008, the current practitioners interact more with BJJ players, I don't know. But, I mean, essentially the two have enough commonality that it wouldn't be a surprise. I mean hell... "modern" olympic judo and bjj have so much in common as it is( IMO... I know many here will dissagree with that statement. )

I don't see how that takes anything away from the Kosen legitimacy though. Reading, seeing numerous videos on the web, and having a chance to train with someone who was in the thick of it all...

I guess what I'm saying is-- maybe its a bit silly or naive to think, that all the techniques and philosophy just up and dissappeared with Hirata's death, and now its just olympic judo using bjj behind the scenes, but under the "Kosen" banner. I don't buy that.

Just my 2 centavos...

Of the 1400 or so pages of Judo writing that Master Oda put out, at least some of them have been translated into English. I have a copy of Harrison's 1959 book "Judo on the Ground" which is derived from Oda's work. It includes techniques that I haven't seen in traditional Kodokan style classes. However, the book has mostly line drawings which can be difficult to decipher and the translated descriptions don't always clear things up so it can be a little tricky to figure out exactly what is being instructed.

At least some of the current "Kosen" practitioners seem to be working on fighting from the guard and that, I don't see anywhere in "Judo on the Ground", or other historic manuals and I believe it to be a BJJ innovation.

I don't think there's any doubt that the Kosen schools are/were teaching techniques that I'd never seen and my coaches probably haven't seen either. I'd be willing to bet that most senior Kodokan Coaches HAD seen them though, and just weren't as focused on them as they were stand up techniques.

I'd like to get a set of the Isao Okano Vital Judo books, also long out of print, to compare with. Okano was a successful Olympian and Kodokan newaza specialist. There's a place in Japan selling modern reprints that I may try to order from. Will let you guys know how that works out...

 

[NinjaKilla187]

double post

 

[Drew Foster]

YouTube - Kyoto Judo Highlight

If this is the Kyoto Kosen Judo school, and theyy're specialty is Newaza (ground for non Judo guys), then why is there no display of newaza in this clip? Not being a smartass, it's just always bugged me with this clip...


BTW the Uchimata at 2:00 is top 5 of all time!!!

Can someone edit that throw out of the vid by any chance and post it seperate?

 

[knoxpk]

Good thread.

I am too lazy to research this but I think somewhere I read that Kosen Judo was NOT a "style" of Judo rather a set of rules the judoka played under.

So it is very possible IMO that A Judo guy can state he is just doing Judo but he may have played Judo with Kosen rules.

So maybe in this argument there CAN be 2 correct answers.

There are no real "Kosen" Judo players but there can be players that played under Kosen rules and therefore have as good an understanding of gorundwork as some BJJ players.

As for Q mystics question about the rules I got this from here:
KAI

The rules of former Kosen match
At that times,I have heard that Kosen judo match had no time limit,no border line of match mat,no standing fight. Also I have heard that some judo players have continued match more than for about several hours,still when decided the winner. Winner have decided when you or opponent gave up by submission or choke sleepering,or holding for 30 seconds. The winner has recognized only an Ippon.Namely if you won against opponent with Wazaari or Yuko,that was an even draw. But these days almost judo match are ruled by Kodokan rules,nearly international rules.

 

[georgejjr]

Dayum. That sucks. No mention or word of subs even??

LMAO. Yep, sounds like a wrestler.:icon_lol:



Sorry, what I meant in your quote of mine was that us who all really know they come from just ju-jutsu(via bjj, sambo or judo). Kano modernized it. I don't see many going back to straight forms of earlier ju-jutsu.



You wrestlers weren't from there.

Russian judo, Brazilian judo...

Yeah, I knew what you meant, I was just adding humor (perhaps not too successfully :redface. BTW, when I mentioned chokes and locks to my wrestling coach he went on about catch-as-can (what he called it) ... at the time I'd never heard of it and thought he was just talking about pro-wrestling. I doubt he knew any catch though, it was more an arguing point. In the end he decided doing judo wasn't ruining my wrestling, so it wasn't an issue. When I first started judo some of the mid-range belts (greens, blues) made negative comments about wrestling as well, but the instructors thought it was a good background for judo.

I kind of suspect there's a bit of that attitude in BJJ and judo towards Kosen ... the "why do you need to do anything more than what do" line of thinking.