kata exercise

[Jack Stevonovich]

all arguing aside, serious question here. Since you guys say techniques and katas arent karate without learning what you have mentioned below



can you please show me some videos that would illustrate your points?

video examples of your quoted statements above such as the fighting context of a kata? (i know there are benefits to kata)

or a video of the philosophy behind the style and the context of the movements being taught?

show me some videos that "are" karate.

Were not in person so we cant demonstrate ourselves, but surely there is a video out there somewhere demonstrating these things.

 

[shincheckin]

is this karate? mimicking karate? not karate? techniques being demonstrated by a Karateka?

is it TKD? TKD techniques demonstrated by a MMA fighter?

Knowing and using karate techniques is not karate.

I see no examples of the philosophy behind the style, therefore that is not karate.

 

[CFGroup]

Can I inject a wee bit of humor?.....
But this is highly entertaining except it seems like a lot of tension in peeps I have a ton of respect for which makes the arguing a bummer.

I always thought at a high level Martial Arts start to blend. I've heard that posted here many times. yes you have to strap that white belt back on and learn a new system from the ground up, but you will excel vs the guy who walks in the door with zero experience. I'm guessing that some are hesitant to take the four years to commit to learning a new system so they can honestly teach it.

The Japanese GoJu San Dan guy I trained more recently with for a decade had a ton of similar techniques from the Judo Nage No Kata curriculum and from my old striking days my crossover into kickboxing from direct Korean lineage TKD had major adjustments to make, but the foundation was there to advance rapidly.

 

[Tayski]

is this karate? mimicking karate? not karate? techniques being demonstrated by a Karateka?

is it TKD? TKD techniques demonstrated by a MMA fighter?

Knowing and using karate techniques is not karate.

I see no examples of the philosophy behind the style, therefore that is not karate.

Do you ever give up?

I mean it's not like you know anything about kata, so why going in so much back and forth in a thread/topic you don't know anything about?

 

[ironkhan57]

@Tayski you do realize he said he was going to ignore all your comments like a week ago, but than he got fed up so now hes firing back. I don't disagree with what hes doing but it's not like hes trying to be recognized as a top karate instructor.

And really you guys don't have to respond to him which you guys are and that leads to even more back and forth which leads to me reading this conversation continuing this until my 25th birthday and i'm about to be 22.

 

[Tayski]

@Tayski you do realize he said he was going to ignore all your comments like a week ago, but than he got fed up so now hes firing back. I don't disagree with what hes doing but it's not like hes trying to be recognized as a top karate instructor.

And really you guys don't have to respond to him which you guys are and that leads to even more back and forth which leads to me reading this conversation continuing this until my 25th birthday and i'm about to be 22.

Well good if he finally decided to stop, he didn't say it here and I don't follow every thread. It's just that 2 pages of pointless back and forth gets a bit heavy.

Being sarcastic about what people tell him when he doesn't know any better himself is just useless and childish.

 

[shincheckin]

Do you ever give up?

I mean it's not like you know anything about kata, so why going in so much back and forth in a thread/topic you don't know anything about?

every single video posted that was blatantly karate, be it kata, or karate technique was labeled not karate because there was no philosophy behind it.

Applying the same concept to karate videos i posted, to this MMA video.... its obviously not karate as there is no karate philosophy being demonstrated.

If one were to replicate the techniques displayed in this video, it would not be karate. Rather it would be chambered kicking techniques displayed by a MMA fighter.

If we were to distinguish these techniques as specific to karate, and one were to replicate those techniques, it would still not be karate, it would be mimicking karate as there is no philosophy behind it.

Even if the MMA fighter is a karateka, it would still not be karate as there is no philosophy behind it. Rather it would be kicking techniques displayed by a karateka in a MMA fight.

No philosophy = no karate

 

[Tayski]

every single video posted that was blatantly karate, be it kata, or karate technique was labeled not karate because there was no philosophy behind it.

Applying the same concept to karate videos i posted, to this MMA video.... its obviously not karate as there is no karate philosophy being demonstrated.

If one were to replicate the techniques displayed in this video, it would not be karate. Rather it would be chambered kicking techniques displayed by a MMA fighter.

If we were to distinguish these techniques as specific to karate, and one were to replicate those techniques, it would still not be karate, it would be mimicking karate as there is no philosophy behind it.

Even if the MMA fighter is a karateka, it would still not be karate as there is no philosophy behind it. Rather it would be kicking techniques displayed by a karateka in a MMA fight.

No philosophy = no karate

Is that supposed to be funny?

You misinterpret what people say on purpose and drag it for 2 pages of back and forth. Come on just get a grip already.

I just feel you decided to be trolling Karate and Karate fans on this forum since people didn't agree with your commercial plan of pretending to be a Karate teacher for kids for some quick easy bucks. People weren't trolling you, they expressed how they felt about your scam. Shame that you can't take criticism and understand people's point of views.

Are you really wanting people to know Jonas Staggs as a forum troll and scam artist?

You've done a lot of good stuff including MT fights and instructionals, why don't you just focus on what you're good at instead of going on some weird tangents about things you haven't even studied yourself?

 

[ironkhan57]

Well good if he finally decided to stop, he didn't say it here and I don't follow every thread. It's just that 2 pages of pointless back and forth gets a bit heavy.

Being sarcastic about what people tell him when he doesn't know any better himself is just useless and childish.

He said a week ago in this thread that he didn't ask for you guys oppinion, and said that hes going to do it with or without your approval. You guys are the only ones dragging on the conversation. So if you want him to stop than just stop responding. In fact the conversations were entertaining to read for the past week now its just kind of dull.

 

[Tayski]

He said a week ago in this thread that he didn't ask for you guys oppinion, and said that hes going to do it with or without your approval. You guys are the only ones dragging on the conversation. So if you want him to stop than just stop responding. In fact the conversations were entertaining to read for the past week now its just kind of dull.

Still keeps going on about Karate in a sarcastic way in a Kata thread, he carried over the discussion into this thread which was unnecessary.

 

[ironkhan57]

Still keeps going on about Karate in a sarcastic way in a Kata thread, he carried over the discussion into this thread which was unnecessary.

Because he was fed up. He wasn't responding to you guys for a few days than decided to fire back.

 

[shincheckin]

Is that supposed to be funny?

You misinterpret what people say on purpose and drag it for 2 pages of back and forth. Come on just get a grip already.

I just feel you decided to be trolling Karate and Karate fans on this forum since people didn't agree with your commercial plan of pretending to be a Karate teacher for kids for some quick easy bucks. People weren't trolling you, they expressed how they felt about your scam. Shame that you can't take criticism and understand people's point of views.

Are you really wanting people to know Jonas Staggs as a forum troll and scam artist?

You've done a lot of good stuff including MT fights and instructionals, why don't you just focus on what you're good at instead of going on some weird tangents about things you haven't even studied yourself?

the whole thing got kicked off in my thread title good karate techniques, which i shared because I though they were good karate techniques, and as from my previous discussions about karate, kyokushin to be specific you guys know I like karate. The question was brought up whether i plan to have kids karate, which i do. Everyone always forgets I plan to have a hired karate instructor as well. As I have said many times I plan on both learning and fighting karate, just not to the extent of black belt. Someone that has learned karate to a intermediate level and fought karate, should be qualified to teach the very basics to extremely young kids, yet you guys have a problem with that. Anything beyond that is what the hired instructor would be for, but you guys love to forget that part. I was then flamed ridiculously out of control, and tried to be polite for the majority of the time but was pushed too far with all the personal attacks, that was so hard, random posters were jumping on the band wagon of McDojo. If learning and fighting boxing or MT or whatever, doesnt qualify you to teach it, what does? Philosophy? meditating on a mountain somewhere? We can all agree that MT and Kyokushin are very similar. So someone who has trained MT/kyokushin for 20 years, shouldnt have a problem transitioning. You guys than like to pretend that learning a karate technique from a tutorial video is not karate without learning the philosophy of karate, you guys went so far to even say that learning a karate kata from a tutorial is not karate, its mimicking karate. Sorry dude, I can learn a karate technique from a tutorial, and use it in a fight, and yes it is karate without the philosphy behind it. Just as a guy that has trained kyokushin for 20 years can learn a muay thai technique from a tutorial, and use it in a fight, and yes it is muay thai. I understand theres more to karate than just techniques and fighting but you guys were trying so hard to prove a point you guys were outright denying blatant karate.........hey is this karate kata karate? no its mimicking karate. Hey is this karate kick technique karate? no its not karate, those are kicking techniques being demonstrated by karateka. Ok well what about these techniques from the kyokushin bible? No thats not karate, there is no philosophy being taught so its not karate. Ok well what about these karate techniques my MT coach who also happens to be a karate instructor taught me and I have used in a fight, is that karate? No thats not karate either apparently... I dragged it on because denying the blatant karate techniques is ridiculous..........just about as ridiculous as me denying the karate techniques in that MMA video.......but remember, there was no philosophy, so those are merely karate techniques being mimicked in an MMA fight. You dont need to learn katas, or the philosophy of karate, to learn karate techniques and use them in a fight. If you know karate techniques, and have used them in a fight. You should be capable of teaching others how to use those same techniques in a fight. Hey you see that guy over there that learned and fought karate. Hes not capable of teaching a 5 year old the karate stance! Another thing commonly overlooked was the age range I was speaking about teaching. The kids will be so young the main goal will be to stop them from eating their boogers. The more serious class is for, you guessed it the instructor. But why do you have to call it karate, just call it kids moo tie in a gi............cause this is murica and muricans know krotty, not moo tie or any other wonderful name you can think up. Hes just in it for the money! Well gyms are businesses and businesses need to make money to remain open. Kids karate is successful in murica, and adding a kids krotty program to any gym is a great way to add extra income. And as to not make it a total mcdojo bullshit, not only do i plan on hiring a instructor, but both learning and competing in it myself.......lastly...the gym is a gym, not a dojo. You guys envision me opening a karate dojo. Negative, you can think more along the lines of MT gym with a kids karate program. Hey guess what, fuck mcdojos, cardio kickboxing is the mcdojo of the MT world. Do I want cardio kickboxing at my gym? no. Will it be there? yes, because thats 90% of your clientele and is pretty much a requirment here in murica to remain in business. So if I am to take your guys advice in regards to what is karate vs what isnt karate, then no my previous post is not meant to be funny as there is no philosophy. I also legitimately asked for some actual karate footage as apparently everthing I posted was not karate and that legit karate footage was never posted.

Let me ask you this: you saw my previous video examples, which were labeled not karate as there was no philosophy. So show me some examples of what "is" karate and make sure there is some philosophy otherwise its just mimicking karate, or fighting techniques demonstrated by karateka. Were not in person to demonstrate but surely there is a video out there somewhere that does. I would like to see it.

 

[Tayski]

the whole thing got kicked off in my thread title good karate techniques, which i shared because I though they were good karate techniques, and as from my previous discussions about karate, kyokushin to be specific you guys know I like karate. The question was brought up whether i plan to have kids karate, which i do. Everyone always forgets I plan to have a hired karate instructor as well. As I have said many times I plan on both learning and fighting karate, just not to the extent of black belt. Someone that has learned karate to a intermediate level and fought karate, should be qualified to teach the very basics to extremely young kids, yet you guys have a problem with that. Anything beyond that is what the hired instructor would be for, but you guys love to forget that part. I was then flamed ridiculously out of control, and tried to be polite for the majority of the time but was pushed too far with all the personal attacks, that was so hard, random posters were jumping on the band wagon of McDojo. If learning and fighting boxing or MT or whatever, doesnt qualify you to teach it, what does? Philosophy? meditating on a mountain somewhere? We can all agree that MT and Kyokushin are very similar. So someone who has trained MT/kyokushin for 20 years, shouldnt have a problem transitioning. You guys than like to pretend that learning a karate technique from a tutorial video is not karate without learning the philosophy of karate, you guys went so far to even say that learning a karate kata from a tutorial is not karate, its mimicking karate. Sorry dude, I can learn a karate technique from a tutorial, and use it in a fight, and yes it is karate without the philosphy behind it. Just as a guy that has trained kyokushin for 20 years can learn a muay thai technique from a tutorial, and use it in a fight, and yes it is muay thai. I understand theres more to karate than just techniques and fighting but you guys were trying so hard to prove a point you guys were outright denying blatant karate.........hey is this karate kata karate? no its mimicking karate. Hey is this karate kick technique karate? no its not karate, those are kicking techniques being demonstrated by karateka. Ok well what about these techniques from the kyokushin bible? No thats not karate, there is no philosophy being taught so its not karate. Ok well what about these karate techniques my MT coach who also happens to be a karate instructor taught me and I have used in a fight, is that karate? No thats not karate either apparently... I dragged it on because denying the blatant karate techniques is ridiculous..........just about as ridiculous as me denying the karate techniques in that MMA video.......but remember, there was no philosophy, so those are merely karate techniques being mimicked in an MMA fight. You dont need to learn katas, or the philosophy of karate, to learn karate techniques and use them in a fight. If you know karate techniques, and have used them in a fight. You should be capable of teaching others how to use those same techniques in a fight. Hey you see that guy over there that learned and fought karate. Hes not capable of teaching a 5 year old the karate stance! Another thing commonly overlooked was the age range I was speaking about teaching. The kids will be so young the main goal will be to stop them from eating their boogers. The more serious class is for, you guessed it the instructor. But why do you have to call it karate, just call it kids moo tie in a gi............cause this is murica and muricans know krotty, not moo tie or any other wonderful name you can think up. Hes just in it for the money! Well gyms are businesses and businesses need to make money to remain open. Kids karate is successful in murica, and adding a kids krotty program to any gym is a great way to add extra income. And as to not make it a total mcdojo bullshit, not only do i plan on hiring a instructor, but both learning and competing in it myself.......lastly...the gym is a gym, not a dojo. You guys envision me opening a karate dojo. Negative, you can think more along the lines of MT gym with a kids karate program. Hey guess what, fuck mcdojos, cardio kickboxing is the mcdojo of the MT world. Do I want cardio kickboxing at my gym? no. Will it be there? yes, because thats 90% of your clientele and is pretty much a requirment here in murica to remain in business. So if I am to take your guys advice in regards to what is karate vs what isnt karate, then no my previous post is not meant to be funny as there is no philosophy. I also legitimately asked for some actual karate footage as apparently everthing I posted was not karate and that legit karate footage was never posted.

Let me ask you this: you saw my previous video examples, which were labeled not karate as there was no philosophy. So show me some examples of what "is" karate and make sure there is some philosophy otherwise its just mimicking karate, or fighting techniques demonstrated by karateka. Were not in person to demonstrate but surely there is a video out there somewhere that does. I would like to see it.

The thing is you want people to agree that learning a Karate technique means you know Karate and therefore you can teach Karate. People are telling you there is more to Karate than just fight techniques and fighting, but that part you choose to ignore. You're trying to convince people that if you learn Karate techniques from tutorials you therefore learn and know Karate and therefore can teach it to kids, which is not how learning/teaching Karate works. That's the part you choose to ignore. A Karate instructor running his own dojo like you're planning to do is usually at least shodan level, which is not the end of the Karate learning but rather the beginning. So when you say you don't plan to study Karate that far and shouldn't have to, don't be surprised why people jump to the conclusions of mcdojo.

The other problem is that you put everybody in the same bag "you guys", "you karate guys", so when 1 guy argues with you that techniques on the videos are merely just technique without the context of Karate mindset, you then take it personal and think "all those karate guys are idiots, they think you need philosophy, duh, I know better, I'm a MT guy".

After all this back and forth you're still thinking fighting in Karate tournaments means you know Karate and can teach it to young kids, but you're too arrogant to listen to people who tell you that's not how learning and teaching Karate works. You keep comparing it to boxing, muay thai or mma which are combat sports designed around ring/cage fighting, which is not the case with Karate. For as long as you'll have the mindset that Karate is a fight sport, you'll always be missing on what people are trying to tell you on here. But instead let's discuss the relevance of kata, tell people that if you learn techniques from tutorials you know Karate, or that the mindset, philosophy, Japanese terminology and syllabus are all bullshit and just some cultish shit, and so on.

You think Karate is simple because Muay Thai is simple. You think because you learn some Karate techniques and fight in some Karate tournaments you'll be able to teach some young kids how to move in zenkutsu dachi. After the 100th time telling you Karate is not all about fighting and the syllabus for kids has a lot of things which are not directly linked to kumite tournaments, you still insist on telling me what's what about learning and teaching Karate. I have been learning Karate for close to 2 decades and have run classes for young kids, teenagers and adults. Yet you're still trying to argue with me what is or isn't Karate or how to teach kids while you haven't even taken 1 Karate class yourself. I mean do you ever consider what other people with slightly more experience on a topic are telling you?

You say yourself that you'll be teaching very young kids, but yet when you defend what you'll be teaching you're talking about fight techniques and fighting in Karate tournaments. I don't even understand the logic or link between the two. It's not like those young kids will be smashing pads and sparring, so what they need to learn is fundamentals of Karate, which you don't know and won't be able to teach.

In any case, you have people's opinions about what you're planning to do, which is calling something Karate because "people don't know any better" and because you "need to make money". Then you wonder why people would even question the legitimacy behind that.

Now let's stop polluting every Karate thread with some sarcastic bullshit just because you take things personal and can't understand what people are trying to tell you.

When you take what 1 person says and put it as this: "you saw my previous video examples, which were labeled not karate as there was no philosophy".
You just show that you're not capable of distinguishing different people and prefer putting everybody in the same bag.

I also have 0 interest in showing you some examples of Karate videos just for you to say "OKAY SO THOSE ARE KARATE TECHNIQUES RIGHT?? SO IF I LEARN THOSE I KNOW KARATE?? SO IF I KNOW KARATE I CAN TEACH KARATE RIGHT?? SO I CAN BE AN INSTRUCTOR TO YOUNG KIDS!!"

Your logic is flawed and I'm not interested in going that way and launching another 2 pages of pointless back and forth.

 

[shincheckin]

I dont plan on learning from tutorials. I plan on learning from a instructor, which I have already done. my instructor who teaches both MT and Karate. Hes already shown me karate techniques and I have already used them in a fight. Does learning karate techniques from a instructor and using them in a fight qualify as learning karate? No because there was no philosophy taught.

People are telling you there is more to Karate than just fight techniques and fighting, but that part you choose to ignore

you missed this, it has been said multiple times not just in my quote below but throughout this entire thread.

I understand theres more to karate than just techniques and fighting

A Karate instructor running his own dojo like you're planning to do

looks like you missed this as well. Its not a Karate Dojo.

You guys envision me opening a karate dojo. Negative, you can think more along the lines of MT gym with a kids karate program.

The other problem is that you put everybody in the same bag "you guys", "you karate guys", so when 1 guy argues with you that techniques on the video

all you "guys" were on board with. Thats not karate, its kicking techniques demonstrated by karateka, so on and so forth.

For as long as you'll have the mindset that Karate is a fight sport, you'll always be missing on what people are trying to tell you on here.

I again understand theres more to karate than just fighting. Thats what the instructor would be for. All the extra BS im not interested in learning as the fighting techniques are the only part that appeal to me.

I also have 0 interest in showing you some examples of Karate videos

Thats because you cant.




yeah instead of arguing with you back and forth you keep on with the karate philosophy atop mountain konichiwa in the bamboo forest

and ill keep learning karate techniques from my instructor (which doesnt count as learning karate) and using them in MT fights.

 

[JohnPJones]

Can’t believe this is still going on.

He has some real emotional investment in teaching not-karate and convincing people it’s karate.

 

[shincheckin]

"what am I teaching? Im teaching you how to fight. Im teaching you martial arts. Theres only 1 way to throw a punch. and thats the way it works. Doesnt matter if its karate, KB, or MT."

Amazing words spoken by this man in this documentary.

 

[Jack Stevonovich]

so i'm surprised i didn't think of this sooner, but as an exercise to help students who have a hard time visualizing a kata technique as a real technique, an exercise that could help.

step 1
pick any MMA, KB, K-1 fighter you want
step 2
pick any fight with that fighter in it
step 3
select either a certain time limit within the fight, or a number of techniques in the fight.
step 4
use the techniques from the given time frame, or within the technique quota in the respective order they were used and create a kata.

you can choose to emulate the fight exactly (going forward when they go forward, back when they go back, etc.) or simply do the techniques but with your chosen facing and footwork.

extra credit
step 5
look at the techniques as demonstrated in this new kata and find alternate interpretations of each movement.

@AndyMaBobs @Tayski @Azam @Frode Falch

this sounds incredibly difficult!

 

[Tayski]

"what am I teaching? Im teaching you how to fight. Im teaching you martial arts. Theres only 1 way to throw a punch. and thats the way it works. Doesnt matter if its karate, KB, or MT."

Amazing words spoken by this man in this documentary.

He's also not purposely mislabelling what he teaches to make more money. Just saying.

He calls his dojo a "martial arts academy" and has legit instructors for each discipline.

If you look back at what I said before, I did suggest to you to call what you planned on opening "martial arts for kids" instead of "karate for kids" as you haven't learnt Karate and "martial arts" would be more accurate of what you'd be teaching if you don't want to call it Muay Thai. But let's of course ignore that part.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

Let's not ignore it, then. This is the guy in the documentary and his websites



What kind of camp? Does he only consider this style for camps and not at his studio?

Check out the wording vvv


He even calls it a Dojo. Now we need an altogether different set of mental gymnastics (together with some insults thrown in for good measure). There have been countless unaddressed over-the-top paradigm shifts from the purists in this thread. Yet another shouldn't be any trouble. Maybe just complain about the size of the images (I'll put them in spoilers after a few days).

 

[shincheckin]

He's also not purposely mislabelling what he teaches to make more money. Just saying.

He calls his dojo a "martial arts academy" and has legit instructors for each discipline.

If you look back at what I said before, I did suggest to you to call what you planned on opening "martial arts for kids" instead of "karate for kids" as you haven't learnt Karate and "martial arts" would be more accurate of what you'd be teaching if you don't want to call it Muay Thai. But let's of course ignore that part.

fair enough.

His martial arts are heavily influenced by MT and Karate and we can easily see the effectiveness of combining both.

Its funny that this top kyokushin gym is located in thailand, has a heavy MT influence, and looks more MT gym than karate dojo.