Jumping guard should be illegal!!!

[Calibur]

i seriously cant believe how many people are so opposed to guard jumping. its totally cool to do some judo throw that slams a guy down with the throwers full weight landing down on him. but if a guy jumps on another then all of a sudden its too dangerous because he may lose his footing and slip. how bout instead people learn to deal with it the way Judokas learn to deal with getting tossed (ukemi)

You can't ukemi out of a guard slam. That's why it's illegal. You can protect yourself while being vaulted but you can't disqualify yourself when you're being slammed from a guard jump.

Skull and spine straight to the floor.

 

[Einarr]

I'm also pretty surprised about the amount of people against guard jumping.

I think the reasons guard jumping is so disliked are:

1) the natural and best response to someone jumping guard is to slam them to the floor, but the rules protect the jumper against this

2) the rules actually make the one being jumped on responsible for the safety of the person jumping - if you topple over from the weight/momentum and the jumper falls on their head you get DQed. Ridiculous.

3) For the most part habitual guard jumpers do so because they have completely neglected standing grappling.

4) It has zero practical value - jumping guard in a streetfight will literally get you killed. Why should such a silly technique be so endemic to a martial art?

5) The phenomenon of guard jumping has led to a very low and hunched over stance which is overly defensive and turns BJJ stand-up into little more than who can buttflop first, as with point 4 this stance has no practical value outside of pure grappling.

6) It is dangerous for both parties: Jumping guard too low can hyper-extend the knee and break it in a second. The jumper is putting their safety in the assumption that the rules protect them - it's only your opponent's wish not to be DQed which is stopping them from spiking your head to the mat.

IMO, it should go the way of Kani Basami in BJJ competition, I think we'd see a massive improvement in the quality of BJJ stand-up without it.

 

[Newcastle]

I think the reasons guard jumping is so disliked are:

1) the natural and best response to someone jumping guard is to slam them to the floor, but the rules protect the jumper against this

2) the rules actually make the one being jumped on responsible for the safety of the person jumping - if you topple over from the weight/momentum and the jumper falls on their head you get DQed. Ridiculous.

3) For the most part habitual guard jumpers do so because they have completely neglected standing grappling.

4) It has zero practical value - jumping guard in a streetfight will literally get you killed. Why should such a silly technique be so endemic to a martial art?

5) The phenomenon of guard jumping has led to a very low and hunched over stance which is overly defensive and turns BJJ stand-up into little more than who can buttflop first, as with point 4 this stance has no practical value outside of pure grappling.

6) It is dangerous for both parties: Jumping guard too low can hyper-extend the knee and break it in a second. The jumper is putting their safety in the assumption that the rules protect them - it's only your opponent's wish not to be DQed which is stopping them from spiking your head to the mat.

IMO, it should go the way of Kani Basami in BJJ competition, I think we'd see a massive improvement in the quality of BJJ stand-up without it.

We're talking about sport BJJ here. There are plenty aspects of sport BJJ that aren't practical in a street fight. See X-guard, hell most bottom positions would not be desirable to most in a street fight.

 

[Nozza]

We're talking about sport BJJ here. There are plenty aspects of sport BJJ that aren't practical in a street fight. See X-guard, hell most bottom positions would not be desirable to most in a street fight.

They might not be desirable but they are quite likely. You might not want to pull guard but if you find yourself under an opponent then operating from guard is extremely useful. Even stuff like X-guard could be used on the street if you find yourself at an opponents feet and you're quick to react. You tie them up making it hard for them to kick you and get an easy sweep/takedown.

So it seems to me that guard jumping is different. Not only is it undesirable but it has no application to the non-sport world at all. Plus there is the undue responsibility on the standing person.

 

[tenniswhiz]

A lot of these rules are a problem.

If someone pulls guard, their opponent should get points for the TD.
Because the whole point of a TD is to be on top of your opponent.

Same with sweeps. The whole point of a sweep is to reverse your opponent from top to bottom. What difference does it make how it happens?

 

[Thunderflash500]

I think it should be legal, but the person who gets jumped on should not have to insure the others safety when falling. If the guy loses his balance and slams the hell out of the guy who jumped on him, that's his own fault.

 

[georgejjr]

We're talking about sport BJJ here. There are plenty aspects of sport BJJ that aren't practical in a street fight. See X-guard, hell most bottom positions would not be desirable to most in a street fight.

But none of those put the opponent in the position of risking their own health (back in particular) to avoid being disqualified.

If I jump guard on you, and you don't hold me up properly, you run a real risk of being disqualified for slamming. If you try to hold me up (and I'm in the 200+ pound category), and your posture is off or your back is week, you could seriously hurt your back. You're caught between a rock and a hard place.

The only combinations that are fair are:

1) Allow guard jumping and allow slamming (ie you don't have to risk your back to keep from being disqualified).
2) Ban guard jumping and slamming.

And option (1) will lead to a lot of unnecessary spinal injuries, and for what?

A lot of these rules are a problem.

If someone pulls guard, their opponent should get points for the TD.
Because the whole point of a TD is to be on top of your opponent.

Same with sweeps. The whole point of a sweep is to reverse your opponent from top to bottom. What difference does it make how it happens?

As a wrestler and a judoka of long standing, I disagree with giving the opponent points for a TD on a guard pull. A guard pull is generally a skilled technique - and like all throws they're pretty easy to avoid if your opponent has no other takedown (ie if you know a guard pull, or a seoi nage, or a double is coming, you should be able to stop it if you're at the same level as your opponent). Most folks don't bother contesting it (ie the game of BJJ is largely played out of the guard), so I wouldn't give points for doing it, but I wouldn't penalize it either.

Now butt scooting (sitting down far away so the other guy isn't pulled into your guard) I could see giving TD points for to the other guy. But a successful pull ends up with the guy in your guard. That takes a decent amount of skill to set up.

 

[Einarr]

We're talking about sport BJJ here. There are plenty aspects of sport BJJ that aren't practical in a street fight. See X-guard, hell most bottom positions would not be desirable to most in a street fight.

I see the sportive aspect of BJJ as secondary to the martial aspect. I compete in BJJ primarily to hone my groundfighting skills, winning shiny things is secondary at best.

 

[TheSubmissionCh]

- E

 

[Einarr]

I've actually been trying to get away from it completely, but in my finals match on saturday, I did it for some reason.

This in itself is one reason to ban it. If you have essentially conditioned yourself to see openings for a guard jump and you go for them nearly automatically from muscle memory what's stopping this from happening in a self-defense situation when your adrenaline is surging and you're fighting semi-instinctively? If you're conditioning yourself to jump guard when there's an opening what happens when you're fighting on concrete and you automatically register an opening for a guard jump? You'll get yourself killed, literally.

 

[NateTx4112]

Not everyone trains BJJ for self defense homie. You can't assume everyone has the same goals, needs, and wants for a martial art or sport. You view it as a martial art first, cool.

I view this as a sport first, a hobby second, workout third, and self defense fourth or maybe 5th. Bring on the guard pulls I don't care. Learn to pass and smash, enjoy the game.

 

[cjlewis01]

This in itself is one reason to ban it. If you have essentially conditioned yourself to see openings for a guard jump and you go for them nearly automatically from muscle memory what's stopping this from happening in a self-defense situation when your adrenaline is surging and you're fighting semi-instinctively? If you're conditioning yourself to jump guard when there's an opening what happens when you're fighting on concrete and you automatically register an opening for a guard jump? You'll get yourself killed, literally.

I don't necessarily agree here. I've had two mma fights. Never considered jumping guard. I did pull guard off some shitty shots in my first fight, but never tried to pull guard in my second.

But I do agree with the sentiment. I have suffered a little because in mma you can get slammed while in tournaments you can't. Doesn't mean we should start allowing slamming. But a penalty for jumping guard rather than a ban would be acceptable imo too

 

[Kozbot]

you should give up points for going it. you are essentially launching yourself into a slam takedown. how the "move" is rewarded points in BJJ vs. achieving position is baffling to me.

 

[Calibur]

- E

The guy clearly didn't know how to take it.

 

[Einarr]

The guy clearly didn't know how to take it.

That reminds me a lot of Yamashita Yasuhiro vs Endo Sumio. A low guard jump onto the leg could be seen as very similar to Kani Basami.

 

[Calibur]

That reminds me a lot of Yamashita Yasuhiro vs Endo Sumio. A low guard jump onto the leg could be seen as very similar to Kani Basami.

But Kani basami kinda defies the spirit of modern Judo. Guard pulling does not.

This move will not be banned in bjj. Make no mistake, if one Achilles lock put a guy out like that the Ibjjf would demand life time bans for the vermin who hurt their opponent with such a dangerous technique.

 

[Einarr]

Not everyone trains BJJ for self defense homie. You can't assume everyone has the same goals, needs, and wants for a martial art or sport. You view it as a martial art first, cool.

I view this as a sport first, a hobby second, workout third, and self defense fourth or maybe 5th. Bring on the guard pulls I don't care. Learn to pass and smash, enjoy the game.

That's fine but Jiu-Jitsu is a martial art. It was created as such. The original purpose of a competition was just to pressure test your skills against a fully resisting opponent, not to win bits of tin. I think techniques which go against the martial aspect of the art should be discouraged.

 

[Einarr]

But Kani basami kinda defies the spirit of modern Judo. Guard pulling does not.

This move will not be banned in bjj. Make no mistake, if one Achilles lock put a guy out like that the Ibjjf would demand life time bans for the vermin who hurt their opponent with such a dangerous technique.

I've stopped even trying to figure out which parts of your posts are serious and which are joking. Bravo! :icon_lol:

 

[Balto]

This in itself is one reason to ban it. If you have essentially conditioned yourself to see openings for a guard jump and you go for them nearly automatically from muscle memory what's stopping this from happening in a self-defense situation when your adrenaline is surging and you're fighting semi-instinctively? If you're conditioning yourself to jump guard when there's an opening what happens when you're fighting on concrete and you automatically register an opening for a guard jump? You'll get yourself killed, literally.

By that logic, Judo conditions you to go for grips without considering strikes. If you do that in a real situation, you could eat a punch to the jaw and get yourself killed, literally.

There is really no competitive form of martial arts that doesn't require some changes in a real situation. Even MMA does a lot of things that probably wouldn't work. It doesn't mean MMA is worthless for self-defense.

 

[NateTx4112]

That's fine but Jiu-Jitsu is a martial art. It was created as such. The original purpose of a competition was just to pressure test your skills against a fully resisting opponent, not to win bits of tin. I think techniques which go against the martial aspect of the art should be discouraged.

Jiu Jitsu is different things to different people. Jiu Jitsu IS what the practitioner needs it to be. For me Jiu Jitsu is a sport/hobby.

By that logic, Judo conditions you to go for grips without considering strikes. If you do that in a real situation, you could eat a punch to the jaw and get yourself killed, literally.

There is really no competitive form of martial arts that doesn't require some changes in a real situation. Even MMA does a lot of things that probably wouldn't work. It doesn't mean MMA is worthless for self-defense.

This.