Judo techniques: Why don't they beat wrestlers?

[Rod1]

cejudo wrestled folkystyle for years prior to going to doing freestyle, he was a 4 times state champion...

He was a highschool wrestler, Frank Mir was a high school wrestler too. His professional training was spent entirely on freestyle.

Yes or No: In the absolute upper tier of of the sport, over time, American folkstyle wrestlers have had more success than any other group of fighters? This is a yes no question and should be very easy to answer.

Its a false dichotomy, is the mexican baseball league better than the MLB because they won the Caribbean series?

Just because American wrestlers win some of UFC titles (only 3 titles are held by NCAA athletes) doesnt means squat if Iranian and Russian wrestlers arent entering the UFC.

You are giving a conclusion based on a forfeit win, American wrestling is superior to freestyle because freestyle wrestlers arent entering MMA.

All of your other arguments are not related. Yes, Iran beat the USA this year in freestyle. Yes, there have been some champs in the UFC that were not folkstyle wrestlers. Yes, in small lower level organizations there are foreigners who are performing well. Look at the UFC championships and Pride GP's over time. It is overwhelmingly American folkstyle wrestlers with Brazilians being a distant 2nd.

And overwhelmingly American wrestlers are entering the UFC, how many freestyle wrestlers have competed in MMA? Fujita maybe?

They dont do MMA simple as that.

And what about PRIDE? most folkstyle wrestlers had unremarkable careers, only Henderson had a good career and he was destroyed on the ground multiple times over his career, by non-wrestlers.

Okami's base is judo. Did he become a wrestler just because he started training wrestling and BJJ afterwards?

Or is he a judoka when he loses and a wrestler when he wins?

Of course, if you wrestled 1 year in highschool you are a wrestler the rest of your life, if you competed in judo internationally, you better be winning your matches by uchi mata or you are not a judoka, you are also forbidden to crosstrain at all.

 

[Rod1]

this is an epic thread.

That being said, stop with this "if the mats were not padded in mma Judo will kill people" bullcrap. Official judo tatames are springed also so don't ask for something in mma that your own martial art doesn't have.

Wrong thread, go argue with Einarr in that other thread.

This thread is about the stupid idea that just because freestyle wrestlers havent made the transition to MMA, that means american wrestling is superior. + judo bashing.

 

[Dirty Holt]

Again, you are giving a long winded answer to a question you know the answer to. For whatever reason you want to assign it, folkstyle wrestlers dominate MMA. It may not be fair because they have more opportunities or that Russian athletes "do not try" a simple yes or no was all I wanted.

You keep going back to how athlete A beats athlete B in an attempt to show how folkstyle wrestling isnt dominant. It is useless. All of the guys you are using in Pride all have losses against American wrestlers. That includes Fedor, Silva, Cro Cop, and Nogueria. Look at the entire class of top guys, not just cherry pick individual match ups.

He was a highschool wrestler, Frank Mir was a high school wrestler too. His professional training was spent entirely on freestyle.

This is absolute horseshit. Frank Mir isnt training freestyle wrestling with anyone, he doesnt come from a freestyle background, and he has never been an avid freestyle wrestling competitor. He wrestled many years and competed for many years in one style of wrestling: Folkstyle.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Okami's base is judo. Did he become a wrestler just because he started training wrestling and BJJ afterwards?

Or is he a judoka when he loses and a wrestler when he wins?

I didnt know he was a judo based fighter, I for some reason always thought he was a Japanese wrestler... my bad.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Again, you are giving a long winded answer to a question you know the answer to. For whatever reason you want to assign it, folkstyle wrestlers dominate MMA. It may not be fair because they have more opportunities or that Russian athletes "do not try" a simple yes or no was all I wanted.

You keep going back to how athlete A beats athlete B in an attempt to show how folkstyle wrestling isnt dominant. It is useless. All of the guys you are using in Pride all have losses against American wrestlers. That includes Fedor, Silva, Cro Cop, and Nogueria. Look at the entire class of top guys, not just cherry pick individual match ups.



This is absolute horseshit. Frank Mir isnt training freestyle wrestling with anyone, he doesnt come from a freestyle background, and he has never been an avid freestyle wrestling competitor. He wrestled many years and competed for many years in one style of wrestling: Folkstyle.

I think he meant cejudo is a freestyle wrestler, not mir.

 

[nefti]

Again, you are giving a long winded answer to a question you know the answer to. For whatever reason you want to assign it, folkstyle wrestlers dominate MMA. It may not be fair because they have more opportunities or that Russian athletes "do not try" a simple yes or no was all I wanted.

You keep going back to how athlete A beats athlete B in an attempt to show how folkstyle wrestling isnt dominant. It is useless. All of the guys you are using in Pride all have losses against American wrestlers. That includes Fedor, Silva, Cro Cop, and Nogueria. Look at the entire class of top guys, not just cherry pick individual match ups.



This is absolute horseshit. Frank Mir isnt training freestyle wrestling with anyone, he doesnt come from a freestyle background, and he has never been an avid freestyle wrestling competitor. He wrestled many years and competed for many years in one style of wrestling: Folkstyle.

Funny thing is this: if you were an international lvl judoka and another person was arguing about judo with you Rod1 would be the first one to tell the other guy to shut the **** up.

 

[Rod1]

Again, you are giving a long winded answer to a question you know the answer to. For whatever reason you want to assign it, folkstyle wrestlers dominate MMA. It may not be fair because they have more opportunities or that Russian athletes "do not try" a simple yes or no was all I wanted.

Out of the 10 UFC current champs (including interim) only 3 wrestled in college but 9 are BJJ blackbelts.

Clearly BJJ is the most dominant art.

See, playing with numbers is pointless.

You keep going back to how athlete A beats athlete B in an attempt to show how folkstyle wrestling isnt dominant. It is useless. All of the guys you are using in Pride all have losses against American wrestlers. That includes Fedor, Silva, Cro Cop, and Nogueria. Look at the entire class of top guys, not just cherry pick individual match ups.

Isnt that what you are saying either? everybody loses, you could also cherrypick what you want, Cain will lose and so will Jon Jones eventually.

GSP a non-wrestler used to tool wrestlers and before you come up with the he was tooled by a younger more fit wrestler, ill counter with the fact that JJ was tooled and even taken down more than once by a boxer.

Clearly MMA isnt as developed to start throwing facts, the dominance of a certain style is transitory, wrestling used to dominate harder a few years ago, that dominance is slowly fading.

This is absolute horseshit. Frank Mir isnt training freestyle wrestling with anyone, he doesnt come from a freestyle background, and he has never been an avid freestyle wrestling competitor. He wrestled many years and competed for many years in one style of wrestling: Folkstyle.

And his wrestling sucks big balls that was my point. Is that just because a guy used to wrestle in high school doesnt makes his as much of a wrestler as a Div 1 NCAA champ. Henry Cejudo professional training has been pretty much freestyle.

And Askren who completely tooled his NCAA counterparts during his career couldnt do that to freestyle wrestlers, in fact that cuban tooled him when it came to "control".

International wrestling matwork is pretty damn technical and advantaced, folkstyle isnt about more control.

 

[Rod1]

Funny thing is this: if you were an international lvl judoka and another person was arguing about judo with you Rod1 would be the first one to tell the other guy to shut the **** up.

Im not telling anyone to shut up, you are the ones making outlandish claims (freestyle wrestlers lack control, standups are as quick as in judo).

And there are plenty of valid points from everyone in this thread.

 

[nefti]

Im not telling anyone to shut up, you are the ones making outlandish claims (freestyle wrestlers lack control, standups are as quick as in judo).

And there are plenty of valid points from everyone in this thread.

shut up as in a figure of speech.

 

[Crossface9]

Out of the 10 UFC current champs (including interim) only 3 wrestled in college but 9 are BJJ blackbelts.

Clearly BJJ is the most dominant art.

See, playing with numbers is pointless.

GSP a non-wrestler used to tool wrestlers and before you come up with the he was tooled by a younger more fit wrestler, ill counter with the fact that JJ was tooled and even taken down more than once by a boxer.

Clearly MMA isnt as developed to start throwing facts, the dominance of a certain style is transitory, wrestling used to dominate harder a few years ago, that dominance is slowly fading.

5 out of the 8 champions are wrestlers. Not including women's or the injured champion. GSP is one of the best MMA wrestlers ever...

 

[Rod1]

5 out of the 8 champions are wrestlers. Not including women's or the injured champion. GSP is one of the best MMA wrestlers ever...

GSP isnt even American, how can he be an american college wrestler? only JJ, Cain and Weidmann has significant careers in wrestling, the others come from different backgrounds. Maybe some of them wrestled a year or so in high school.

 

[Crossface9]

GSP isnt even American, how can he be an american college wrestler? only JJ, Cain and Weidmann has significant careers in wrestling, the others come from different backgrounds. Maybe some of them wrestled a year or so in high school.

I never said that, I said wrestler that's all that matters. I'm not all that familiar with MM though, but I have seen great wrestling from him.

 

[Rod1]

I never said that, I said wrestler that's all that matters. I'm not all that familiar with MM though, but I have seen great wrestling from him.

You were replying to me and i specified american folk wrestlers.

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

GSP is a karate guy and there are 9 champs including Rousey.

 

[Crossface9]

You were replying to me and i specified american folk wrestlers.

It shouldn't really matter, its all wrestling. Folk doesn't even allow submissions but it still does great against arts where you can viciously KO and submit people. Just imagine if submission wrestling and Catch were big again. Wrestler's kryptonite is usually submissions, if Catch wrestling was back on top. I'm sure wed dominate even more. Plus you would have more variety of wrestlers. But people don't want to take the hard road.

 

[Kaffe]

I never said that, I said wrestler that's all that matters. I'm not all that familiar with MM though, but I have seen great wrestling from him.

If you want to count GSP as having wrestling as a base, then per your definition, you need to count every wrestler who has started doing BJJ for MMA as BJJ guys. It's all BJJ anyways, right? And you know how much that thought pleases you.

 

[Rod1]

It shouldn't really matter, its all wrestling. Folk doesn't even allow submissions but it still does great against arts where you can viciously KO and submit people. Just imagine if submission wrestling and Catch were big again. Are kryptonite is submissions, if submissions were back in wrestling I'm sure wed dominate even more. Plus you would have more variety of wrestlers.

Or it would created a backlash where wrestlers are more willing to give up position to go for a submission.

Wrestling is so great at control because rarely will a wrestler give an inch, judokas and samboists have the guard and sacrifice techniques which are more limited in wrestling.

 

[Crossface9]

If you want to count GSP as having wrestling as a base, then per your definition, you need to count every wrestler who has started doing BJJ for MMA as BJJ guys. It's all BJJ anyways, right? And you know how much that thought pleases you.

GSP is what he wants to be, he is a wrestler/ Jiu-jitsu fighter that's what he is announced as. Its up to what you want to be called really. As long as it checks out.

 

[Crossface9]

Or it would created a backlash where wrestlers are more willing to give up position to go for a submission.

Wrestling is so great at control because rarely will a wrestler give an inch, judokas and samboists have the guard and sacrifice techniques which are more limited in wrestling.

Or there would be 2 kinds of wrestling.... and you pick between submission and non-submission wrestling.

 

[Rod1]

Or there would be 2 kinds of wrestling.... and you pick between submission and non-submission wrestling.

In that case all grappling is a type of wrestling, even judo, sambo and BJJ.

Different rules, different results.