Judo techniques: Why don't they beat wrestlers?

[Uchi Mata]

I don't know why anyone in there right mind would say olympic wrestling sucks. You guys got hit harder with new rules then we did. We just had submissions and certain holds like the full nelson taken out. Basically every time I see Judo, its all throws. I'll see the guy throw his opponent in about a minute in the match is over. That's stupid, some throws don't even look that damaging and then you watch mma or BJJ, the Judoka throws the guy and the guy who's thrown gets control or complete control. Sure that happens in all grappling arts, but I think if Judoka had more chances to follow up and get a pin or a submission instead already winning the match. It wouldn't be so much of a problem.

If Judo did that, it would be wrestling. Seriously, most Judo throws make following up with solid ground control much harder than wrestling TDs, because most Judo throws create significant separation between you and your opponent that make getting instant ground control tough. And the ones that don't, like ouchi and kouchi gari, as well as kosoto gake and some hip tosses, are all present in wrestling (inside and outside trips, basically).

 

[kintana]

Im pretty sure Russia and many other countries are swimming in combat sport athletes that could reach the top of MMA in the right enviroment (MMA as a viable career).

But for the most part these elite athletes will just follow their sport. Most of the Russians going to MMA are not high end athletes in their respective sports, Fedor was one, he was judo national team and sambo champion. Imagine Fedor joining an elite MMA team instead of training with his buddies in Russia,

I agree with that. A guy like Saitiev wouldn't need to go into MMA. Because wrestlers in Russia get money especially gold medal olympians. I hear Mansur Isaev a judoka got a million dollars for his gold medal plus a car.

American wrestlers primarily NCAA ex champions need money. Even if they win a gold medal they get 200,000. Before I dont know how much they got. But it is hard to make a living of wrestling in the US.

Even countries like Venezuela (where I live) wrestlers get some decent cash in venezuelan terms. Plus if they are a certain age and able to medal in pan americans they get free housing, free food, travel expenses and a stipend. So for them going MMA route is not very appealing. The only venezuelan wrestlers I know who do MMA are guys who are not national team guys who dont get much government help.

Just cause you dont see many russian wrestlers in MMA is not that freestyle or greco doesn't work but it is just that they dont need to do MMA.

However I will admit american folkstyle wresters do enjoy more success then guys from other grappling backgrounds.

I have my theory why;

1.) They need the money more then international freestyle guys
2.) Folkstyle from my point of view (which is a novice POV)is about control and dominating. Not about big throws.
3.) Folkstyles guys are pretty much willing to learn about other aspects of MMA then some people from other grappling styles.

I will explain this. Ex NCAA guys have good takedowns and takedown defense plus excellent conditioning. But other then TD and TD defense they dont know much else. So they are willing to learn. More then the BJJ guys. A few of my friends that fought MMA from BJJ or sambo backgrounds seem to think they are already good at MMA. One BJJ friend didn't even bother learning to strike for his first amateur match. He did win but still. I have read some folksyle guys need to learn a lot more so they need to focus more on training different parts of the grappling game, like sub defense, subs escapes from mount, back etc. Plus with striking. Just a theory of mine.

4. Usually they are very good athletes. For most of us who lived in the US, we know how competitive high school and D1 sports can be. And if your a D1 level athlete you are pretty damn good at what you do.

 

[Crossface9]

If Judo did that, it would be wrestling. Seriously, most Judo throws make following up with solid ground control much harder than wrestling TDs, because most Judo throws create significant separation between you and your opponent that make getting instant ground control tough. And the ones that don't, like ouchi and kouchi gari, as well as kosoto gake and some hip tosses, are all present in wrestling (inside and outside trips, basically).

I edited my post since you quoted it. That doesn't make sense to me, why would an art do that to it self? I think that would really hurt you're chances against a solid wrestler or grappler in a mma or grappling match, even in street fight you're really just going to rely on a throw grappling wise? What are you going to do if you get completely reversed? What are you going to do if the guy has a high pain threshold. Atleast, you are alot more likely to fight an untrained guy on concrete, in MMA it will be almost the exact opposite...

 

[Crossface9]

I agree with that. A guy like Saitiev wouldn't need to go into MMA. Because wrestlers in Russia get money especially gold medal olympians. I hear Mansur Isaev a judoka got a million dollars for his gold medal plus a car.

American wrestlers primarily NCAA ex champions need money. Even if they win a gold medal they get 200,000. Before I dont know how much they got. But it is hard to make a living of wrestling in the US.

Even countries like Venezuela (where I live) wrestlers get some decent cash in venezuelan terms. Plus if they are a certain age and able to medal in pan americans they get free housing, free food, travel expenses and a stipend. So for them going MMA route is not very appealing. The only venezuelan wrestlers I know who do MMA are guys who are not national team guys who dont get much government help.

Just cause you dont see many russian wrestlers in MMA is not that freestyle or greco doesn't work but it is just that they dont need to do MMA.

However I will admit american folkstyle wresters do enjoy more success then guys from other grappling backgrounds.

I have my theory why;

1.) They need the money more then international freestyle guys
2.) Folkstyle from my point of view (which is a novice POV)is about control and dominating. Not about big throws.
3.) Folkstyles guys are pretty much willing to learn about other aspects of MMA then some people from other grappling styles.

I will explain this. Ex NCAA guys have good takedowns and takedown defense plus excellent conditioning. But other then TD and TD defense they dont know much else.

You didn't mention control... Which is the most important part of wrestling, to dominate and or impose you're will someone the whole match or fight. That's why pins in wrestling are so important, even control is underutilized in Judo and BJJ in my opinon. Great post otherwise though.

 

[kintana]

You didn't mention control... Which is the most important part of wrestling, to dominate and or impose you're will someone the whole match or fight. That's why pins in wrestling are so important, even control is underutilized in Judo and BJJ in my opinon. Great post otherwise though.

I did at it in the 2nd point I made. But yes control is very important in MMA and it is something that is emphasised a lot in folkstyle with riding time. Which is a concept I like.

 

[Crossface9]

I did at it in the 2nd point I made. But yes control is very important in MMA and it is something that is emphasised a lot in folkstyle with riding time. Which is a concept I like.

Ok, cool. I didn't see it in the bolded quote, so I was really confused. Seem you like know enough to know something that simple. Yeah I like the emphasis of control for sure.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I edited my post since you quoted it. That doesn't make sense to me, why would an art do that to it self? I think that would really hurt you're chances against a solid wrestler or grappler in a mma or grappling match, even in street fight you're really just going to rely on a throw grappling wise? What are you going to do if you get completely reversed? What are you going to do if the guy has a high pain threshold. Atleast, you are alot more likely to fight an untrained guy on concrete, in MMA it will be almost the exact opposite...

Judo's really sporty, and the big throw is what people like to see. It's always been the ideal of Judo. Wrestling seems to be about dominating your opponent, Judo is more about catching them in a moment of weakness to send them flying, it just so happens that wrestling's rule set and goals are closer to MMA's than Judo's. Of course, on the street a big throw on concrete is going to be killer and if you're decent at Judo and the other guy isn't you're not likely to go down with him in a bad position, but for MMA it's both not as dangerous to take a throw (mats and all), and guys can take advantage of your bad post throw positioning.

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

You are leaving out one very important detail: UFC is the home of the best fighters on the planet. The best organization in the world favors American folkstyle wrestling over any other martial art at the present time.

More like American folk style wrestlers funnel into the UFC because they dont have many other career options compared to other sports. Other than becoming a wrestling coach there is no professional outlet for college wrestlers. There isnt a huge scene for any other styles in the states like there is for folk style wrestlers.

Just like Pride was saturated with judokas, Brazilian mma events are saturated with BJJ guys, and Sambo practitioners dominate Russian MMA.

 

[Magooglie]

Competitive Judo is doing some things which disadvantage them as MMA fighters. Ronda Rousey is a special case since her mom made her do armbars everyday.

 

[Dirty Holt]

Putting aside other elements of this debate, how does pointing to Shogun putting his arm out badly during a takedown attempt by Coleman and getting it broke prove any serious point?

It was basically a fluke.

It doesnt which was exactly my point. Because Kevin Randleman got submitted or Rustam Khabilov beat Abel Trujillo in no way shape or form shows how judoka have had much more success in MMA than folkstyle wrestlers.

The proof is in the pudding. Look at the elite level of the sport and look at who over the history has dominated and it has been only 2 groups of fighters. The overwhelming majority of that has been American folkstyle wrestlers.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

More like American folk style wrestlers funnel into the UFC because they dont have many other career options compared to other sports. Other than becoming a wrestling coach there is no professional outlet for college wrestlers. There isnt a huge scene for any other styles in the states like there is for folk style wrestlers.

Just like Pride was saturated with judokas, Brazilian mma events are saturated with BJJ guys, and Sambo practitioners dominate Russian MMA.

the problem was that even in PRIDE, judokas never had much of success.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

It doesnt which was exactly my point. Because Kevin Randleman got submitted or Rustam Khabilov beat Abel Trujillo in no way shape or form shows how judoka have had much more success in MMA than folkstyle wrestlers.

The proof is in the pudding. Look at the elite level of the sport and look at who over the history has dominated and it has been only 2 groups of fighters. The overwhelming majority of that has been American folkstyle wrestlers.

that is true, but what the others are saying in this regard is also true.

out of 10 fighters in the UFC, 8 are american wrestlers, and 2 are foreing (just a number, but I guess is not that far from the reality), well, its expected that the overwhelming mayority of top fighters in the org will end up being american wrestlers, its simply statistics.

That doesnt change the fact that folky is the best based for MMA.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

the problem was that even in PRIDE, judokas never had much of success.

Yep, you hit the nail on the head as always. Fedor, Yoshida, Nak, Ogawa, Aoki, Sokoudjou - those guys were scrubs in PRIDE.

 

[radman]

Its weird how Americans preceive Judo as some mystical rex kwan-do.

When I look at established nations with long histories of wrestling from Japan to all the countries that make up the Soviet Union, judo is just another form of wrestling or jacket wrestling.

It seems only people in the U.S. cant get that around their head or just too stupid.

Ncie troll thread.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Yep, you hit the nail on the head as always. Fedor, Yoshida, Nak, Ogawa, Aoki, Sokoudjou - those guys were scrubs in PRIDE.

fedor is not a pure judoka, he is a sambo guy, but I will give you that one...

nakamura was allright, nothing to brag about, he had some good wins, but was not a dominant fighter.

aoki? so now he is a judo guy? lmfao, oaki is the poster boy of japanese bjj, keep trying... besides, he only had a couple of fights in PRIDE, his biggest win at the time was probably hell boy

ogawa? who did he ever beat? what did he accomplished? anything else besides losing to fedor?

soku was the one with the biggest success, I would say, with his 2 upsets.

yoshida? he had some balls, and was a good fighter, but nothing more...

I would call successful fighters fedor, nog, shogun, wandy, arona, hendo, gomi, those were dominant fighters...

 

[Saenchai]

I would call successful fighters fedor, nog, shogun, wandy, arona, hendo, gomi, those were dominant fighters...

Those successful fighters have all good striking which help most likely in their bouts whether or not they were good "wrestlers" and that's something we can all agree.

 

[Kaffe]

aoki? so now he is a judo guy? lmfao, oaki is the poster boy of Japanese BJJ..

Considering this was what started the thread:

Hey all, I was watching the Aoki/Melendez fight earlier and Aoki couldn't seem to even gain a dominant position. It seems the same way in the UFC.

Shouldn't we then change the subject to why BJJ guys get beat up by wrestlers?

 

[Rod1]

It doesnt which was exactly my point. Because Kevin Randleman got submitted or Rustam Khabilov beat Abel Trujillo in no way shape or form shows how judoka have had much more success in MMA than folkstyle wrestlers.

The proof is in the pudding. Look at the elite level of the sport and look at who over the history has dominated and it has been only 2 groups of fighters. The overwhelming majority of that has been American folkstyle wrestlers.

MMA didnt existed from 1994 to 2006?

 

[Rod1]

that is true, but what the others are saying in this regard is also true.

out of 10 fighters in the UFC, 8 are american wrestlers, and 2 are foreing (just a number, but I guess is not that far from the reality), well, its expected that the overwhelming mayority of top fighters in the org will end up being american wrestlers, its simply statistics.

That doesnt change the fact that folky is the best based for MMA.

Its also expected that the majority of american competitors in an american org will be Americans, out of Americans, the vast majority of top athletes entering MMA are wrestlers, why do we see top notch wrestling in the UFC, but not top notch boxing? Because great boxers will be making money in boxing.

Anyway this argument is stupid just go and see matches of Iranian and Russian wrestlers and tell me that "they lack control", their control is fine and the generally rape American wrestlers on technique and control

Saying that the matwork of a Russian wrestler is inferior to that of an American is a joke.

American wrestling is the only top sport that has athletes regularly joining the UFC and MMA in general.

 

[Rod1]

fedor is not a pure judoka, he is a sambo guy, but I will give you that one...

nakamura was allright, nothing to brag about, he had some good wins, but was not a dominant fighter.

aoki? so now he is a judo guy? lmfao, oaki is the poster boy of japanese bjj, keep trying... besides, he only had a couple of fights in PRIDE, his biggest win at the time was probably hell boy

ogawa? who did he ever beat? what did he accomplished? anything else besides losing to fedor?

soku was the one with the biggest success, I would say, with his 2 upsets.

yoshida? he had some balls, and was a good fighter, but nothing more...

I would call successful fighters fedor, nog, shogun, wandy, arona, hendo, gomi, those were dominant fighters...

Of course the classic BJJ_Rage argument that if you trained anything else in your life before entering MMA you are automatically not a judoka. Fedor was in the Russian national team, you dont get there by training judo on the side.

Lombard is doing great with a judo background if you ask me, but since he isnt trying to win by ippon he is immediatly not a judoka, but Weidmann is a wrestler despite the fact that he won by KTFO of A Silva, not outwrestling him