Judo techniques: Why don't they beat wrestlers?

[BJJ_Rage]

its easy enough to do if you are much better than the guy, but if the guy knows how to ride legs, he will constantly be readjusting and it isnt likely you will pin him

it is much more likely you will be pinned

they call the pin as soon as its clear the shoulders are on the mat and there is some measure of control, its not a 3 count or something

in my experience in freestyle they call it much much faster

thats what im saying, its very hard to get pinned from that position, simple because its pretty easy to turn the guy on top of you to the side

 

[Thai Otoshi]

anybody wanna organize a forum-wide style vs style tournament? we all fly somewhere in the midwest? qualifier rounds everyone plays 2 people from different styles and then we do double elimination?

Midwest? C'mon son...

East coast big city plz.

I hear Einarr's osoto is the thing to beat though.

 

[Dirty Holt]

can someone please explain to me where this American sense of superiority came from? now is not anymore wrestling vs judo, is the US vs the world?

Because if you look at all of the champions in the UFC, American wrestlers hold the lions share of titles. Judo has Ronda and her 2 UFC wins, and Karo who threw Diego a few times en route to losing.

The fact that anyone would even question that American folkstyle has transitioned more successfully than any other style in the cage blows my mind. You look at the history of champions in each weight and it is littered with American folkstyle wrestlers.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Because if you look at all of the champions in the UFC, American wrestlers hold the lions share of titles. Judo has Ronda and her 2 UFC wins, and Karo who threw Diego a few times en route to losing.

The fact that anyone would even question that American folkstyle has transitioned more successfully than any other style in the cage blows my mind. You look at the history of champions in each weight and it is littered with American folkstyle wrestlers.

you missed understood me holt, I meant the Rod references to the american sense of superiority, meaning he brought that out of no where, for no reason at all...

 

[deadlizard]

you missed understood me holt, I meant the Rod references to the american sense of superiority, meaning he brought that out of no where, for no reason at all...

That's because he's not American.

 

[Rod1]

can someone please explain to me where this American sense of superiority came from? now is not anymore wrestling vs judo, is the US vs the world?

The fact that you and all the Americans think that freestyle wrestling is an inferior form of wrestling?

 

[Rod1]

rod is a judoka, not a wrestler, im pretty sure he hasnt wrestle in his whole life, him being from mexico, so take it for what its worth.

Judo team where i trained was made by wrestlers, Judo came to the university games when wrestling was taken out, so wrestlers just migrated, the wrestlers i trained with, were trained by a cuban trainer who had olympic medallists in his coaching record.

Then there is the first 15 years or so of MMA where wrestlers were tooled on the ground by BJJ guys.

This is a FREESTYLE AKA INTERNATIONAL wrestling instructional on the double leg ride (or back mount as BJJers call it)

As I said, this position is extremely common and useful in folkstyle and it is still relatively common in freestyle.

Please admit total ignorance of all wrestling and apologize to me.

LOL @ the idea of someone simply turning and getting a defensive pin when their opponent has backmount.. I think you barely even do newaza, even a high white belt in BJJ should be experienced enough at this position to know that is not true.. you seemed to think its obviously true that you can simply roll the guy onto his back when he has backmount and keep him there..

judos groundwork aside from submissions is very limited compared to even freestyle wrestling, much less folkstyle wrestling

wow.. such ignorance, much posturing, very bullshit

But i thought international freestyle has no groundwork because its watered down like judo and the ref will stand you up, Murica.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

The fact that you and all the Americans think that freestyle wrestling is an inferior form of wrestling?

oh boy you got this wrong, I dont think freestyle is inferior to folky I think it doesnt translate as good as folky to mma....

Judo team where i trained was made by wrestlers, Judo came to the university games when wrestling was taken out, so wrestlers just migrated, the wrestlers i trained with, were trained by a cuban trainer who had olympic medallists in his coaching record.

did you train wrestling with them or judo?

 

[Rod1]

Wow.. are there avid grappling fans on this forum who don't know the difference between folkstyle and freestyle par terre (ground work)????????????

that is almost like not knowing the difference between Judo newaza and BJJ

Having to get back up off bottom and the ref standing you up after 'inactivity' is the biggest difference between folkstyle and freestyle and like selfcritical said, responsible for a lot of the success of wrestle-boxers... look at Liddell vs Crocop, Crocop had a good sprawl but wasn't as good as getting up as Liddell was. Lidell had decades of training just being able to stand back up when someone wants to keep you on the ground.

Here is the American posturing up, thats what turned this into folkstyle vs the world

 

[BJJ_Rage]

That's because he's not American.

neither am I, yet this is about a wrestling style vs another, not murica vs the world...

 

[Rod1]

oh boy you got this wrong, I dont think freestyle is inferior to folky I think it doesnt translate as good as folky to mma....



did you train wrestling with them or judo?

All the first generation judokas were freestyle wrestlers i was first generation, i was the only non-wrestler and we also did meets with other wrestling turn judo teams.

Wrestling is no longer an university game, so its virtually gone and they were indeed tough bastards.

Im talking 2002

 

[BJJ_Rage]

All the first generation judokas were freestyle wrestlers i was first generation, i was the only non-wrestler and we also did meets with other wrestling turn judo teams.

Wrestling is no longer an university game, so its virtually gone and they were indeed tough bastards.

Im talking 2002

so you did not do wrestling but judo with wrestlers?

 

[Rod1]

so you did not do wrestling but judo with wrestlers?

Have you ever gone to an olympic style wrestling or judo training?

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Have you ever gone to an olympic style wrestling or judo training?

nop, but my question was pretty simple, did you or did you not wrestle, that means train under wrestling rules?

I have trained with a couple of judo olympians, still dont know why you are asking....

 

[Rod1]

nop, but my question was pretty simple, did you or did you not wrestle, that means train under wrestling rules?

I have trained with a couple of judo olympians, still dont know why you are asking....

LOL which country? i have met a lot of "judo olympians" in Mexico, of course they dont win anything, they train "traditional judo" with some lame S&C on the side.

Have you trained under an olympic level coach from a former soviet block? i have trained under one from both wrestling and judo.

 

[Rod1]

Which is not even the point i was arguing, the point i was arguing is the people saying that somehow folkstyle wrestling produces better wrestlers because of the standups in freestyle.

This is a fallacy, because freestyle wrestlers will train in an enviroment, they will train standing up from the bottom, they will train turning someone, just because in competition they may not need it doesnt means they dont train it.

When i did judo we had special randori, one man starts bottom the other man starts behind them in referee position, one guy has to escape to their feet, the other prevent it, about 1-2 mins then reverse position then change partners, for around 20 mins, then the same but one guy to look for osaekomi (or pin when wrestling) the other guy to prevent it, change position then partners.

This went for 40 mins pretty much every day wrestling or judo just changed the jacket and the fact that the guard was not a pin.

So when you are coming and telling me that freestyle wrestlers, judoka or sambo trainees dont train escaping bad position, preventing pins and standing up, it basically tells me that you have no idea how judo/wrestling/sambo etc etc is trained in other countries.

Yes, we trained how to escape to our feets, until we puked, we trained how to escape a pin and how to avoid getting pinned in the first place, hard work and hard training is not a trademark of American athletes.

 

[Rod1]

Because if you look at all of the champions in the UFC, American wrestlers hold the lions share of titles. Judo has Ronda and her 2 UFC wins, and Karo who threw Diego a few times en route to losing.

The fact that anyone would even question that American folkstyle has transitioned more successfully than any other style in the cage blows my mind. You look at the history of champions in each weight and it is littered with American folkstyle wrestlers.

Folkie wrestlers only dominated when they trained heavily striking and BJJ, before you had people like Mark Coleman and Kevin Randleman getting owned by other grapplers when the fight hit the ground, they also were outstruck repeatedly.

Eastern europeans know how to grapple and how to fight, they just lack presence currently because MMA is mainly an American sport.

 

[Dirty Holt]

Folkie wrestlers only dominated when they trained heavily striking and BJJ, before you had people like Mark Coleman and Kevin Randleman getting owned by other grapplers when the fight hit the ground, they also were outstruck repeatedly.

Eastern europeans know how to grapple and how to fight, they just lack presence currently because MMA is mainly an American sport.

Thats fine. Look at the roster of UFC champs and who they fought for the world titile right now. Its all collegiate wrestlers minus a few guys. 65% of your top ten guys all come from one style, and its not judo. 80% of the UFC top 3 are collegiate wrestlers. That should be enough proof that wrestling lends its self better to mma than any other style.

Coleman and Randleman were beaten, but they also beat the hell out of a lot of strikers and bjj athletes. Snapping Shoguns arm in half and knocking out Pride CroCop arent exactly easy things to do, especially for a few wrestling "bums" like Randleman and Coleman.

 

[SFCFighter]

Which is not even the point i was arguing, the point i was arguing is the people saying that somehow folkstyle wrestling produces better wrestlers because of the standups in freestyle.

This is a fallacy, because freestyle wrestlers will train in an enviroment, they will train standing up from the bottom, they will train turning someone, just because in competition they may not need it doesnt means they dont train it.

When i did judo we had special randori, one man starts bottom the other man starts behind them in referee position, one guy has to escape to their feet, the other prevent it, about 1-2 mins then reverse position then change partners, for around 20 mins, then the same but one guy to look for osaekomi (or pin when wrestling) the other guy to prevent it, change position then partners.

This went for 40 mins pretty much every day wrestling or judo just changed the jacket and the fact that the guard was not a pin.

So when you are coming and telling me that freestyle wrestlers, judoka or sambo trainees dont train escaping bad position, preventing pins and standing up, it basically tells me that you have no idea how judo/wrestling/sambo etc etc is trained in other countries.

Yes, we trained how to escape to our feets, until we puked, we trained how to escape a pin and how to avoid getting pinned in the first place, hard work and hard training is not a trademark of American athletes.

i have trained judo and freestyle and greco in other countries

its been said many times but a lot of decent competitive judokas are quite one dimensional or uninterested in newaza

i have never seen them train a stand up from the belly in any of those 3 sports.. i have seen them train switches or something of that nature, but it makes very little sense to try to stand up in freestyle and risk being turned

in the old rules they did award a 1 pt escape but i believe that is gone and i have only seen like one match ever where that was a factor

 

[BJJ_Rage]

LOL which country? i have met a lot of "judo olympians" in Mexico, of course they dont win anything, they train "traditional judo" with some lame S&C on the side.

Have you trained under an olympic level coach from a former soviet block? i have trained under one from both wrestling and judo.

dude you know how to go in circles, HAVE YOU OR NOT TRAINED WRESTLING? you have been telling me the history of your grand childs to be borned and I just want to know if you have or have not trained with all those olympians under wrestling rules...