Judo techniques: Why don't they beat wrestlers?

[Rod1]

The Maynard-Diaz fight also had a nice example for judo in MMA and the problem with the big throws (Diaz did a Harai-Toshi with a Seoi-Nage grip, or at least thats the way I would explain it. Diaz caught Maynard with a throw (would have been a nice ippon, no doubt, even with the 2014 ruleset), Maynard rolled a little bit with it and had the same position that he had before.
On the other hand, if Diaz would have had control over the head or maybe even his hand around Maynards hip, he would have been able to control him, I am pretty sure of that.
The way Diaz grabbed the arm of Maynard you could hope for a broken rib if he lands in the wrong way. Yeah, sounds harsh, but you won

 

[Rod1]

are you trolling me?

you can have back control with two hooks in with a seatbelt grip in wrestling..

i have no idea why you think its so easy to instantaneously pin someone if they are riding you like a backpack.. you realize hed have to put both your shoulder blades flat on your back and demonstrate some measure of control?

refs dont call defensive pins instantaneously in 99% of cases.

do you know how hard it is to hold someone flat on their back when they have a totally dominant position on you like backmount? the person with back mount just has to hip down to one side a little and they will never get pinned

Examples? backmount is not truly dominant if cant score and you take away submissions and the opponent is not flat on his belly, you can stand up, switch, use your head as leverage to attack his feet etc etc.

Maybe American wrestling fall points is simply too different to international level, but i would like examples of back control in wrestling which is similar to that of BJJ.

 

[Chr9is]

I would say the biggest thing is the gi. Not that you can't adopt much of Judo no gi it just takes a bit more time and imo the throws are harder when you really start sweating.

 

[deadlizard]

Examples? backmount is not truly dominant if cant score and you take away submissions and the opponent is not flat on his belly, you can stand up, switch, use your head as leverage to attack his feet etc etc.

Maybe American wrestling fall points is simply too different to international level, but i would like examples of back control in wrestling which is similar to that of BJJ.

This is exactly why I don't want to argue wrestling with judokas in f12. The ignorance is mind blowing.

 

[Kaffe]

This is exactly why I don't want to argue wrestling with judokas in f12. The ignorance is mind blowing.

Goes both ways mate. Arguing over this shit is plain dumb any way you cut it.

 

[Rod1]

This is exactly why I don't want to argue wrestling with judokas in f12. The ignorance is mind blowing.

Why? because you cant back up your non-sense?

Judo also has the turn someone flat on his belly or turtle on its curriculum and i have trained and studies judo for a while, and i have yet to see any turnover that requires you to set both hooks in, if you are setting 2 hooks in judo its to choke the opponent.

God i hate American sense of superiority, yes, all those Iranians, Russians, Mongolian, Japanese, French etc etc cant fight, they are just bitches when compared to the allmighty American college wrestler.

 

[deadlizard]

Goes both ways mate. Arguing over this shit is plain dumb any way you cut it.

Yeah, even if a truce can come to this thread, there will be another new judo vs. wrestling thread next week.

 

[deadlizard]

Why? because you cant back up your non-sense?

Judo also has the turn someone flat on his belly or turtle on its curriculum and i have trained and studies judo for a while, and i have yet to see any turnover that requires you to set both hooks in, if you are setting 2 hooks in judo its to choke the opponent.

God i hate American sense of superiority, yes, all those Iranians, Russians, Mongolian, Japanese, French etc etc cant fight, they are just bitches when compared to the allmighty American college wrestler.

Merica is superior because all you foreign fuckers are stupid.

 

[Rod1]

Merica is superior because all you foreign fuckers are stupid.

There is only one leg inside, i know that trick, its a turnover i use it as a transition to armbar. So either you dont wrestle or you are being disingenuous.

Yes, the Russians are so scared of Americans that they change the rules of freestyle to keep the mighty American wrestler out of the olympics.

But of course if he puts one hook in, that means that wrestling is better for jiujitsu than jiujitsu and of course far more advanced than judo groundwork.

 

[Mcmoon]

my thoughts... the most successful TD technique in MMA is the double/single, yet a style that ban those attacks should be the best for MMA? I see no logic on that line of thought.

While I can't say for sure but if I were to guess most greco roman wrestlers have also competed in folkstyle wrestling which most of the time means they have all the tools of folk or freestyle while having the strong clinch game of greco.

could be completely wrong but that is my observation

 

[BJJ_Rage]

are you trolling me?

you can have back control with two hooks in with a seatbelt grip in wrestling..

i have no idea why you think its so easy to instantaneously pin someone if they are riding you like a backpack.. you realize hed have to put both your shoulder blades flat on your back and demonstrate some measure of control?

refs dont call defensive pins instantaneously in 99% of cases.

do you know how hard it is to hold someone flat on their back when they have a totally dominant position on you like backmount? the person with back mount just has to hip down to one side a little and they will never get pinned

rod is a judoka, not a wrestler, im pretty sure he hasnt wrestle in his whole life, him being from mexico, so take it for what its worth.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

While I can't say for sure but if I were to guess most greco roman wrestlers have also competed in folkstyle wrestling which most of the time means they have all the tools of folk or freestyle while having the strong clinch game of greco.

could be completely wrong but that is my observation

In the US, of course, outside the US, theres no folky.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Why? because you cant back up your non-sense?

Judo also has the turn someone flat on his belly or turtle on its curriculum and i have trained and studies judo for a while, and i have yet to see any turnover that requires you to set both hooks in, if you are setting 2 hooks in judo its to choke the opponent.

God i hate American sense of superiority, yes, all those Iranians, Russians, Mongolian, Japanese, French etc etc cant fight, they are just bitches when compared to the allmighty American college wrestler.

can someone please explain to me where this American sense of superiority came from? now is not anymore wrestling vs judo, is the US vs the world?

 

[Mcmoon]

In the US, of course, outside the US, theres no folky.

OK with that fact that most successful greco wrestler in mma are from the US that is probably what they are basing that off of.

I'll honestly admit that as far as rule sets and most techniques go I am pretty ignorant of wrestling other than what little I have encountered in mma and bjj training. Didnt have wrestling where I am from in the US so sadly never got to experience it first hand.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

OK with that fact that most successful greco wrestler in mma are from the US that is probably what they are basing that off of.

I'll honestly admit that as far as rule sets and most techniques go I am pretty ignorant of wrestling other than what little I have encountered in mma and bjj training. Didnt have wrestling where I am from in the US so sadly never got to experience it first hand.

I dont think so, he was probably referring to greco skills on the clinch.

 

[deadlizard]

There is only one leg inside, i know that trick, its a turnover i use it as a transition to armbar. So either you dont wrestle or you are being disingenuous.

Yes, the Russians are so scared of Americans that they change the rules of freestyle to keep the mighty American wrestler out of the olympics.

But of course if he puts one hook in, that means that wrestling is better for jiujitsu than jiujitsu and of course far more advanced than judo groundwork.

Oh my god.... Seriously?

I think you should stop commenting about wrestling, just like how I don't comment on how inferior judo is.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Oh my god.... Seriously?

I think you should stop commenting about wrestling, just like how I don't comment on how inferior judo is.

win.

 

[SFCFighter]

Examples? backmount is not truly dominant if cant score and you take away submissions and the opponent is not flat on his belly, you can stand up, switch, use your head as leverage to attack his feet etc etc.

Maybe American wrestling fall points is simply too different to international level, but i would like examples of back control in wrestling which is similar to that of BJJ.

This is a FREESTYLE AKA INTERNATIONAL wrestling instructional on the double leg ride (or back mount as BJJers call it)

As I said, this position is extremely common and useful in folkstyle and it is still relatively common in freestyle.

Please admit total ignorance of all wrestling and apologize to me.

LOL @ the idea of someone simply turning and getting a defensive pin when their opponent has backmount.. I think you barely even do newaza, even a high white belt in BJJ should be experienced enough at this position to know that is not true.. you seemed to think its obviously true that you can simply roll the guy onto his back when he has backmount and keep him there..

judos groundwork aside from submissions is very limited compared to even freestyle wrestling, much less folkstyle wrestling

wow.. such ignorance, much posturing, very bullshit

 

[BJJ_Rage]

This is a FREESTYLE AKA INTERNATIONAL wrestling instructional on the double leg ride (or back mount as BJJers call it)

As I said, this position is extremely common and useful in folkstyle and it is still relatively common in freestyle.

Please admit total ignorance of all wrestling and apologize to me.

LOL @ the idea of someone simply turning and getting a defensive pin when their opponent has backmount.. I think you barely even do newaza, even a high white belt in BJJ should be experienced enough at this position to know that is not true.. you seemed to think its obviously true that you can simply roll the guy onto his back when he has backmount and keep him there..

judos groundwork aside from submissions is very limited compared to even freestyle wrestling, much less folkstyle wrestling

wow.. such ignorance, much posturing, very bullshit

how long do you have to pin both shoulders to the mat to win by pin? because its pretty damn simply to simple go to a side, remove one hook and use that one to kick and drive your opponent to the desired side (you can even do it without removing the hook, but this works best when facing a bigger heavier opponent)... I think 3 secs (if that the time needed) its way more than enough to perfom that move...

 

[SFCFighter]

how long do you have to pin both shoulders to the mat to win by pin? because its pretty damn simply to simple go to a side, remove one hook and use that one to kick and drive your opponent to the desired side (you can even do it without removing the hook, but this works best when facing a bigger heavier opponent)... I think 3 secs (if that the time needed) its way more than enough to perfom that move...

its easy enough to do if you are much better than the guy, but if the guy knows how to ride legs, he will constantly be readjusting and it isnt likely you will pin him

it is much more likely you will be pinned

they call the pin as soon as its clear the shoulders are on the mat and there is some measure of control, its not a 3 count or something

in my experience in freestyle they call it much much faster