Interesting, I got the opposite impression during that speech, I thought it was there to make us sympathize with him because of what he was put through, which I didn't like. He was the bullied person lashing out.
On the surface, yes.. But he was whiny, and you were almost made to cringe at how he felt. They only wanted to push the justification so far.. But the thing is they could have been done with all that by that scene. He could have just laughing gassed the place through the vents, laughed along with everybody, and then shot the host in the head while he and everybody else laughed uncontrollably at it. Only scene I could have written better myself.
This part is more inline with DC comics of the 50's then anything today but this is also made Batman compelling because of the harsh dark nature of the characters. This really was not about superheros and battling aliens as much as it was about the story. This is really what is missing in much of the superhero ark today is more about visual and humor then character driven art. Even with emotional parts in Avengers Endgame it really was like it was inserted as an afterthought where movies like the Joker and in part Nolan Batman it really was much more about the characters then the effects. James Cameron famously panned MCU because of this narrative I bet he would love the Joker far more even as his latest Terminator is going to be a big visual effects monster you will likely find more acting in it.
Great movie but I don’t think I could ever be that socially irresponsible to create it. They know exactly the disenfranchised subculture they are appealing to as well.
This definitely comes off like a call to arms. I just hope that doesn’t pan out.
I disagree with your disagreement, ha. He was far from shallow in Dark Knight and from what I've seen of the comics he is very complex. He pretty much has to be a genius to rob mobsters, evade the police and Batman, and carry out the criminal acts that he does. The orchestration and planning of all that could not be done by anyone short of a maverick thus that aspect of him is integral to his character, as much so as his makeup and laugh.
This Joker made sense as a person but not as The Joker, at least not enough to me.
His laughter isn't inexplicable, that's his character, hence the name. Depending on the story told of him that's not something that needs an explanation to understand his character. Plenty of motives have been developed in the comics and in The Dark Knight it's made clear that his motive is to show that civilized society is a thin veneer hiding the ugliness of people and that anyone who is pushed far enough can become like him. His whole basis for toying with and not killing Batman is to push him as far as he can.
The Joker can have a dark past (necessity of his character) but has to be a mastermind, which the movie didn't show.
He has plenty of time over the next couple decades to become a criminal mastermind as Bruce grows up.
In DK Joker lifting that veneer on society is his mission but that’s not a motive. A motive would be WHY he is obsessed to the point of sacrificing himself to lift the veneer. You can literally watch the moment the writers gave up developing a motive for it when they have Alfred say “fuck it, this guy just likes watching the world burn. Don’t ask anymore about it audience . He’s just super edgy.” New Joker has a clear reason to be obsessed with ruining the Waynes/their system that protects people like them but not him. New Joker has a motive for having a sick love/hate relationship with his brother Bruce where he won’t kill him.
Dark Knight Joker was well acted, but otherwise puddle deep character and nothing about him made sense thus they didn’t even try to explain anything about his motives or develop the character. Just a smart criminal who plays dress up because it looks edgy.
Why is Joker obsessed with comedy and being a clown, with making everything into a joke? Ummm yeah that does need an explanation beyond “well its his nickname.” The obsession with clowning and the developed comedy/clown skills which is his biggest defining trait needs to be rooted in something. No explanation in DK, the make up and costume are just cheap visuals to sell you on him being so “crazy and different” without writing it in the script. New Joker it’s crystal clear where those comedy skills/obsession comes from.
Joker is supposed to the most mentally ill villain in Batman’s world and new Joker didn’t need the costume and make up to sell that, which was refreshing. It was an actually crazy person trying but failing to control it and then embracing it. Not a genius trying really really hard to convince everyone in the room he was crazy without actually being ill like DK.
There are only so many ways to tell a story about somebody going mad because of urban decay and people shunning what is slightly different. Movies about a lot of issues are going to have similarities.
Too many plot points and scenes lifted straight from these other flicks. The era its set in is the same, the relationship with his colleagues and how one of them gets him the gun to protect himself is exactly the same as Taxi Driver, the obsessive and delusional relationship with the pretty girl is set up the same. The obsession with the politician campaigning so similar. The way it’s shot and the look of the film very, very similar. The pornography elements laid in to portray the protagonist as an incel type, very similar.
One of my film school finals was a long project breaking down Taxi Driver shot by shot and story wise. This director kind of took Travis Bickle and just put him in clown make up. Still a good flick but just a little too derivative.
I feel the movie did fail at bridging the gap between the Joker and Arthur Fleck, I like others feel he never really became the Joker, in that aspect I feel they just fumbled the ball in those last 15 minute.
If he had actually gotten some big dick energy after he killed all of his bullies and destroyed his past to reinvent himself and actually started killing people that were not mean to him just cause it was funny, but he still was too vulnerable and sympathetic in the end.
The last scene is him literally laughing to himself in the asylum interview room because he just came up with the “joke” of killing the complete stranger sitting across from him just for the fun of it.
The show was where they dropped the ball. Most are in agreement. A more intricate plan should have occurred, whether we were in on it, or not. It was thee time to use his laugh to show that his violence was going to be his personal entertainment/joke. Hell, even him laughing at the way the hosts head moved.. I think they chickened out. The rest of the performance was too good to make that one drop of the ball ruin everything, but for me that scene did knock at least 1.5-2 points off.
Had those 5 minutes had him become the joker, with the audience finding the dark humor in his actions with him, it's a 10/10. Again, I imagine they saw it there in front of them, but chickened out. I think they way they made the speech bland and uninspired was intentionally making him a tad unrelatable, and less sympathetic. I think they chickened out as movie makers for that scene.
Loved that scene. If he changed his mind from committing suicide to killing
Murray before going on the show it would be a very boring, anti-climatic scene of him plotting in his dumpy apartment that takes all the suspense out the scene where he’s on stage. Because that’s the moment he turns from Arthur into Joker and it’s much more interesting to have that final transformation occurring in real time in front of Gotham’s and our, the movie goers, eyes. Not when he’s off alone somewhere.
Here's the trick of these 'he imagined it' movies. Argument can be made he always was in the Gotham asylum imagining the entire thing. But that begs the question why make the entire movie in the first place?
As far as I can tell based off of one viewing of the movie, he imagined...
1. Near the beginning, being on the talk show and called up by the host. (This was quite obvious)
2. Every interaction he had with his black single mother neighbor with the exceptions of their first and last scenes. First scene being meeting in the elevator, and last scene being when he sneaked into her apartment and she barely recalled his first name.
Personally, I thought it was quite obvious he was imagining those interactions because she was REALLY attracted to him, liked how he followed her to work, and let him walk into her apartment and seduced her. No one gives him the time of day, but the hottest babe in the movie wants to bang him?
As far as I can tell, all the scenes after he becomes 'Joker' in full makeup and colored suit are 100% legit.
Interesting theory about the middle scenes of the love interest being delusions but a few things don’t add up. How would she know his name or about his mother when he’s in her apartment at the end if they hadn’t been talking all that time. She treated him like a complete stranger in the elevator and didn’t even know his name then. They would have had to have interacted for her to know that stuff.
...nearly makes double its budget back on the first weekend, and probably a total of at least ten times its budget throughout its theatrical run, I wouldn't be surprised if DC plays the long game in creating buzz for a possible sequel.
The biggest hurdle would be convincing Phoenix to sign on for a sequel. He supposedly has a net worth of $35 million, and he has a huge possibility of doubling that if he signs to do a trilogy.
Phoenix passed up mega money roles to be Hulk n Doctor Strange simply because he would have to sign a contract for multi films. Hes turned down other big money flicks.
Yeah, it was about him, but it never convinced me that this was The Joker. The Joker is a mastermind, very coherent, highly manipulative, and a deviant or "agent of chaos", the character portrayed never showed that level of intellect so taking him seriously as the Joker was difficult to begin with and that is a huge character detail to not only gloss over, but never establish or hint at to begin with. They had the perfect opportunity when he came off his meds but did nothing with it, which is basically a summation of the movie. This is just some mentally ill dude going through a rough time.
Joker's mastermind planning was something I would have liked to seen more too. I felt the Batman sections introduced a hokey self awareness, and if we're gonna get hokey then forget Batman, whom we've already known in many film incarnations, and delve into the incredulity of an elaborate plan. The plan we did get was pretty great tho; it started with chaining a door.....
Be that as it may: as always, I owe it to the films and myself to take JOKER as it is rather than fault it for what it is not.
While many of us are fixated on TAXI DRIVER, let's also bring in Andy Kaufman as an inspiration of the final act. The fey mannerisms are similar, but moreover we begin to see how Joker is able to disarm his victims. While we know Joker is ready kill anyone, in that final scene JP plays it so that the show, and consequently the audience, isn't quite sure whether this dude is for real or not. Which makes the later reactions funnier and funnier because, yes, he's for real! What more does he have to do to make it clear?
It's my take that Joker fully emerges with the bloody smile. That sequence, and the "coincidental timeline," were among the cute elements I could have done without.
Saw it yesterday. While it was far better than I expected, I don't see it (as people hail it to be) as the best movie of 2019. Phoenix is masterful in it and... that's about it. I don't see myself thinking about the movie that often.
1. Story and script are OK, i guess. You want to know how it ends. Yes, some things are foreseeable, but you don't want to miss a single moment of the movie. Of course a bunch of people have their panties in the bunch about actually knowing the Jokers real name and (some of) his family members, but in the end, who cares. Dialogue is rather forgettable. I did like the realistic take, no acid, no supernatural stuff, just the plain, old routine of a guy on an edge being pushed over the edge by his surroundings. I can't say I would sympathize with Joker. I understand, with what was shown, in how he came to be the character he is now, but I wouldn't call him an anti-hero. To the people thinking he
doesn't kill an innocent civilian, isn't the lady in the end, in the hospital, an innocent civilian? He definitely murders her. I like that they left ambiguous the part about the young woman with the kid, I prefer to think she is alive.
2. Character development and acting - To be honest, I don't think there's any room for any other character besides Joker to be developed. The supporting actors did a solid job as far as acting goes, but no one stands out or has any larger role in the movie. If I would have to choose between the performances of Phoenix and Ledger (and I guess I have to, as I just mentioned it), i'd go with Ledger. Both are equally great in their own way, I just have a personal preference for Ledger's take on the legendary character. Ledger's ticks, body language, manners and gestures made the character stand out a bit more than the dancing and cringy laugh by Phoenix. And no, I am not impacted by the fact Ledger is dead. I appreciated that the movie did not present the "just one bad day" thing but more of a gradual transition for Joker. I love the quote, but I would hate to see that "one bad day" thing in a movie, it is a bit cliche.
3. Pacing and tone - good, maybe a tad slowish. At no point during the movie did I feel bored or that something was out of pace. Slow, continuous ride to how Joker came to be. Maybe i'm just impacted by the plethora of fast paced action movies I've being watching lately.
4. Cinematography, including sound and visuals - great. Went with a friend who is a pro photo and video guy and he could not shut up about the visuals (he does have a tendency for this slightly muted visuals). That said, I did find myself thinking "this is the third or fourth time they showed Joker looking through windows of moving vehicles". It's too similar to the iconic Dark knight scene. Soundtrack and score were great (though I did find out that they used a song written by some no name guy who happens to be in prison due to being a . Naturally, twitter is in an uproar about this) and go hand in hand with the narrative of the movie.
7,5/10
The little person not being able to reach door security knob thing was beyond hilarious. The entire theater died at that point.
And no, DC, you don't have to guide us through everything. We got that the girl thing was only in his imagination.
I'm not saying this is a horrible movie, I was right along for the ride for the most part. I just think it was mediocre at best and I'm genuinely curious as to what made this movie resonate with certain people so much.
I feel like I watched a decent movie and I have people telling me it's the modern day Citizen Kane, and I'm like "Wtf am I missing here"? Incidentally, it's now ranked #9 on IMDB, well above Citizen Kane and one spot above Good Bad and the Ugly! loool I just don't get it, and I don't think it's because I wasn't born 3 years earlier
Too many plot points and scenes lifted straight from these other flicks. The era its set in is the same, the relationship with his colleagues and how one of them gets him the gun to protect himself is exactly the same as Taxi Driver, the obsessive and delusional relationship with the pretty girl is set up the same. The obsession with the politician campaigning so similar. The way it’s shot and the look of the film very, very similar. The pornography elements laid in to portray the protagonist as an incel type, very similar.
One of my film school finals was a long project breaking down Taxi Driver shot by shot and story wise. This director kind of took Travis Bickle and just put him in clown make up. Still a good flick but just a little too derivative.
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