Jim Miller is a HOF worthy fighter

No Skill Gap said:
Yes and he deserves to be in none of the wings. I like Jim Miller too, but it is what it is.

Let's clarify first, there's a Pioneer Wing and a Modern-era Wing. Miller is not a Pioneer so he doesn't get into what is the easier wing based on accomplishments really.

In the Modern-Wing we currently have some suspect HOFers, clearly because they are company men and friends with Dana, they are: Matt Serra, Michael Bisping, Forrest Griffin, Rashad Evans.

All 4 have won a title in their divisions, and 3 of them clearly have better resume'-s and even Serra likely has a better resume simply from the fact he beat GSP, but at least that one is debatable and he's the most dubious entry. The problem is if you let Jim Miller in, then well now Joe Lauzon should be in right, and Donald Cerrone, and Diego Sanchez as a fighter, and Josh Koscheck, hey Kenny Florian fought for 3 titles and was an OG TUF guy probably has a better resume' than Miller.

Romero, Maynard, Werdum, Arlovski, then any-time champions like Stipe, DC, Whittaker, Izzy, Khabib, maybe Porier???, Holloway are all getting in. Cejudo, McGregor, Aldo-Mouse-Jones-Cruz all automatically get in and should in actuality, Khabib, Dillashaw, Garbrandt?!, Volk in now?, winner of Fig vs Joe B? lol Joe B regardless? Mendes too?

You see my point? like I said I do like Jim Miller, but he's like a Vinny Testaverde not a Peyton Manning. He doesn't deserve to be in a HOF.
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Cowboy is a slam dunk, no way he doesn't get in.
 
No Skill Gap said:
Yes and he deserves to be in none of the wings. I like Jim Miller too, but it is what it is.

Let's clarify first, there's a Pioneer Wing and a Modern-era Wing. Miller is not a Pioneer so he doesn't get into what is the easier wing based on accomplishments really.

In the Modern-Wing we currently have some suspect HOFers, clearly because they are company men and friends with Dana, they are: Matt Serra, Michael Bisping, Forrest Griffin, Rashad Evans.

All 4 have won a title in their divisions, and 3 of them clearly have better resume'-s and even Serra likely has a better resume simply from the fact he beat GSP, but at least that one is debatable and he's the most dubious entry. The problem is if you let Jim Miller in, then well now Joe Lauzon should be in right, and Donald Cerrone, and Diego Sanchez as a fighter, and Josh Koscheck, hey Kenny Florian fought for 3 titles and was an OG TUF guy probably has a better resume' than Miller.

Romero, Maynard, Werdum, Arlovski, then any-time champions like Stipe, DC, Whittaker, Izzy, Khabib, maybe Porier???, Holloway are all getting in. Cejudo, McGregor, Aldo-Mouse-Anderson-Jones-Cruz all automatically get in and should in actuality, Khabib, Dillashaw, Garbrandt?!, Volk in now?, winner of Fig vs Joe B? lol Joe B regardless? Mendes too?

You see my point? like I said I do like Jim Miller, but he's like a Vinny Testaverde not a Peyton Manning. He doesn't deserve to be in a HOF.
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If Demian and Donald keep dropping the ball Jim could easily take that number one spot.
 
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Hellowhosthat said:
Cowboy is a slam dunk, no way he doesn't get in.
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How is that? He's never won a title, only fought for it once and got destroyed. He's not butt buddies with Dana, I don't think which is a huge factor for his case lol

I mean his best 3 wins do look awesome: Benson Henderson, Eddie Alvarez, Edson Barboza. (Oliveira, Varner next two).

Idk it's just tough to put him in imo, he was never elite in any division for more than a second, and he lost his only title fight. Kenny Florian fought for the title 3 times, his best 3 wins aren't as good but he has the TUF1 medal and he only ever lost to: Prime Penn, Prime Aldo, Maynard, Steroid Sherk, and Prime Diego on TUF itself. Where as Cerrone has a ton of losses, which I think factors into this clearly.

As much as people don't want it to, it does. There's a reason Khabibis talked about as a LW GOAT despite his best 3 wins being Porier, Barboza, and McGregor coming off a 2 year layoff (and stylistically great fight for Khabib). He's never lost and he's been dominant that's why. I think people would think much different about Penn's legacy if he rode off into the sunset after Hughes 3 or Fitch.

I'm not the fucking curator of the UFC HOF here, but letting Cerrone in opens up the flood gates imo. Serra was bad (to induct), but it's clearly Dana's butt buddy getting in and hey...Serra won a title and beat GSP and won a TUF, at least there's something to argue on his behalf and it ain't bad. If you let Cerrone in, well then every single title holder ever already has a better resume and argument to get in pretty much. Anyone who fought for multiple titles does now, arguably, guys like Miller/Sanchez/Lauzon should probably all get in or be considered seriously, etc.
 
r-harper-1 said:
No chance imo .... Hall of fame should be for elite fighters ... Miller is barely above journeyman status ..... Hes had a very good career though and is a tough gritty fighter .... but what are his 3 best wins ?
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I mean his claim is as good as Cowboy and people think he deserves it.
 
No Skill Gap said:
How is that? He's never won a title, only fought for it once and got destroyed. He's not butt buddies with Dana, I don't think which is a huge factor for his case lol

I mean his best 3 wins do look awesome: Benson Henderson, Eddie Alvarez, Edson Barboza. (Oliveira, Varner next two).

Idk it's just tough to put him in imo, he was never elite in any division for more than a second, and he lost his only title fight. Kenny Florian fought for the title 3 times, his best 3 wins aren't as good but he has the TUF1 medal and he only ever lost to: Prime Penn, Prime Aldo, Maynard, Steroid Sherk, and Prime Diego on TUF itself. Where as Cerrone has a ton of losses, which I think factors into this clearly.

As much as people don't want it to, it does. There's a reason Khabibis talked about as a LW GOAT despite his best 3 wins being Porier, Barboza, and McGregor coming off a 2 year layoff (and stylistically great fight for Khabib). He's never lost and he's been dominant that's why. I think people would think much different about Penn's legacy if he rode off into the sunset after Hughes 3 or Fitch.

I'm not the fucking curator of the UFC HOF here, but letting Cerrone in opens up the flood gates imo. Serra was bad (to induct), but it's clearly Dana's butt buddy getting in and hey...Serra won a title and beat GSP and won a TUF, at least there's something to argue on his behalf and it ain't bad. If you let Cerrone in, well then every single title holder ever already has a better resume and argument to get in pretty much. Anyone who fought for multiple titles does now, arguably, guys like Miller/Sanchez/Lauzon should probably all get in or be considered seriously, etc.
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Most UFC appearances, most UFC wins, most UFC finishes. Fought a murderers row of opponents and has a fan friendly style.
 
If he is then fighters like Clay Guida and Diego Sanchez would also have to be. I believe you at least have to have been the champ at one point to be considered
 
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RicardinhoPT said:
If he is then fighters like Jim Miller and Diego Sanchez would also have to be. I believe you at least have to have been the champ at one point to be considered
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Diego Sanchez is in!

<BC1>
 
Hellowhosthat said:
Most UFC appearances, most UFC wins, most UFC finishes. Fought a murderers row of opponents and has a fan friendly style.
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Sure, it all comes down the fundamental level of what you decide to be the barrier for entry and rubric for a HOFer.

For me, I don't care about those stats. This isn't the NFL or MLB, I don't think "woahhh most subs ever!" matters that much. Yeah Lauzon, Cerrone, Miller, Sanchez top that list right?

It's not a level playing field. Tom Brady is playing the same competition as Peyton Manning is playing as Drew Brees is playing, close enough to it. There is parity in the league with a hard salary cap, and the talent always evens out over time basically. Barry Bonds (steroids or not...) hitting 750+ HRs matters way more than Jim Miller having the most subs ever. Why?

Because Jim Miller is fighting journeymen, bums, and upcoming prospects who are green or might not even be that good. Where as Khabib/Jon Jones/Izzy for example, are only fighting elite competition and the top contenders. It's unfair to talk about wins and finishes in that context.

I think those things matter on TOP of the resume' as an side note, much like TUF1 fighter or TUF winner do. Cerrone is 0-4 in his last four fights, when he fought elite competition. He's not an elite fighter, he never was. He had one very good run where he briefly was, arguably, and he lost to RDA for the title.

I'm sort of going off the NFL rubric here, you need to be one of the best at your position (insert division) in your era (insert for a stretch of time?). And for QBs winning a ring matters a lot and is a huge boost. So for fighters the equivalent is almost perfectly winning a title, and defending/wining one again, in another division are all huge achievements imo.

Eli Manning is someone who is currently being debated as to whether he should be in or not, it's very divisive and about 50/50. At one point he was an elite QB for maybe 1-2 years, outside of that he's been pretty much average or slightly above it at times. It's actually a very good comparison to Cerrone. The difference is Manning won 2 SB rings against the best team ever arguably, and both times against the Patriots who are the best org of this generation and ever imo.

Basically Eli Manning is Cerrone but he had a Matt Serra stroke of luck, twice and beat BJ Penn and GSP for two titles, then lost then lost them immediately and never defended, if I can make an autistic yet accurate analogy. Also apologize for the essay here lol
 
LMAO. no

I'm so sick of this cultural that wants to hand award trophies out for "participation" or trying really hard

35 UFC fights. Never even made it to a title shot. Not even a big name like Cowboy.

Just no.


Put Khabib against the opponents Jim Miller fights and Khabib could already be 50-0 with the most sub wins, most fights, etc.
 
No Skill Gap said:
Sure, it all comes down the fundamental level of what you decide to be the barrier for entry and rubric for a HOFer.

For me, I don't care about those stats. This isn't the NFL or MLB, I don't think "woahhh most subs ever!" matters that much. Yeah Lauzon, Cerrone, Miller, Sanchez top that list right?

It's not a level playing field. Tom Brady is playing the same competition as Peyton Manning is playing as Drew Brees is playing, close enough to it. There is parity in the league with a hard salary cap, and the talent always evens out over time basically. Barry Bonds (steroids or not...) hitting 750+ HRs matters way more than Jim Miller having the most subs ever. Why?

Because Jim Miller is fighting journeymen, bums, and upcoming prospects who are green or might not even be that good. Where as Khabib/Jon Jones/Izzy for example, are only fighting elite competition and the top contenders. It's unfair to talk about wins and finishes in that context.

I think those things matter on TOP of the resume' as an side note, much like TUF1 fighter or TUF winner do. Cerrone is 0-4 in his last four fights, when he fought elite competition. He's not an elite fighter, he never was. He had one very good run where he briefly was, arguably, and he lost to RDA for the title.

I'm sort of going off the NFL rubric here, you need to be one of the best at your position (insert division) in your era (insert for a stretch of time?). And for QBs winning a ring matters a lot and is a huge boost. So for fighters the equivalent is almost perfectly winning a title, and defending/wining one again, in another division are all huge achievements imo.

Eli Manning is someone who is currently being debated as to whether he should be in or not, it's very divisive and about 50/50. At one point he was an elite QB for maybe 1-2 years, outside of that he's been pretty much average or slightly above it at times. It's actually a very good comparison to Cerrone. The difference is Manning won 2 SB rings against the best team ever arguably, and both times against the Patriots who are the best org of this generation and ever imo.

Basically Eli Manning is Cerrone but he had a Matt Serra stroke of luck, twice and beat BJ Penn and GSP for two titles, then lost then lost them immediately and never defended, if I can make an autistic yet accurate analogy. Also apologize for the essay here lol
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This seems to make sense, but tbh I'm English and don't get any of the American sports references.
 
Hellowhosthat said:
This seems to make sense, but tbh I'm English and don't get any of the American sports references.
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lol alright, well...

Basically the major "real sports" HOFs in America at least, are much more strict - even the NBA aka basketball - than what the UFC has done thus far. Someone like Cerrone of another sport would never get into their HOFs imo

So that's my rubric, and I don't run the HOF so it's just an opinion. But yeah I don't think Cerrone, Sanchez, Miller/Lauzon, type guys should be in. I don't think winning a title is 100% a requirement, but it should be extremely tough to get in otherwise.
 
No Skill Gap said:
He isn't. His fight against someone, I forgot who...is in the HoF (Guida?). But he as a fighter, is not. Not sure why they set it up like that but that's what it is.
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I have already asked you to leave you have cost me enough brain cells as it is. He is literally IN the HOF whether your dumbass wants to accept it or not.
 
r-harper-1 said:
No chance imo .... Hall of fame should be for elite fighters ... Miller is barely above journeyman status ..... Hes had a very good career though and is a tough gritty fighter .... but what are his 3 best wins ?
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Guida
Gomi
Alves
Oliviera
Tibau
Lauzon

HOF is subjective but he’s definitely a good fighter and cracked the top 10 numerous times.
 
RicardinhoPT said:
His fight against Guida is in , which isn't the same
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It pretty much is, at least how the UFC sees it. Buffer announced Guida as a HoFer during the intro.

Throw Miller v. Lauzon in there as the Fight Hall of Fame or whatever it's called. They are in similar boats in terms of not being HoF worthy in the sense of being champions or pioneers, but they have delivered so many great fights and had so much longevity and been ranked for a long ass time that it's hard to not see them as a step above most non-champion fighters.

I'm a big fan of Miller. He's one of my favorites ever and I definitely think he is deserving of some recognition of that type. The guy has had great wins, bad losses, and pretty much ALWAYS has exciting fights and goes for the finish or just grits every fight out as much as he can.
 
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