Is Tom Brady the greatest NFL Player?

[AGGAMEMNON66]

So the ultimate retroactively deduced (i.e. not predictive) metric of performance pertaining to wins is Win Shares. This is calculated in numerous different ways. In baseball, there is WAR. In basketball, there is Win Shares itself, or more individually focused with less weight on team wins, also Real Plus-Minus. For the NFL, the the best version of this right now is Approximate Value. Football is dominated by a single position more than any other team sport, the Quarterback position, so it shouldn't be surprising they make up the lion's share of those at the top of this metric. It's an outcome that validates the metric.

So let's look at the Top 15 Career Approximate Value NFL players of all time.

15 Ben Roethlisberger 208
14 Matt Ryan 210
13 Bruce Matthews+ 215
12 Dan Marino+ 216
11 Philip Rivers 218
10 Ray Lewis+ 224
9 Bruce Smith+ 229
7 Reggie White+ 231
7 Aaron Rodgers 231
6 Fran Tarkenton+ 233
5 Jerry Rice+ 251
4 Brett Favre+ 259
3 Peyton Manning+ 271
2 Drew Brees 277
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1 Tom Brady 326


The distance between #1 Brady and #2 Brees is greater than the distance between #2 Brees and #9 Bruce Smith. Hell, it's more than double the difference between Aaron Rodgers and Matt Ryan. It's like the difference between Big Ben and Matt Stafford.

Yeah this is why I personally put QB in its own category when talking about the best players of all time. The position is so unique that it requires its own evaluation. Still, pretty crazy to see guys like Rice, Smith and some other non QB positions in the top 10 on a list like this.


Pre defensive rule changes it was clear QB and dominant pass rusher were at times interchangeable for most important position in football with QB still being slightly ahead but now it’s just different. QB is head and shoulders above any single position in sports let alone football.

 

[Madmick]

Pre defensive rule changes it was clear QB and dominant pass rusher were at times interchangeable for most important position in football with QB still being slightly ahead but now it’s just different. QB is head and shoulders above any single position in sports let alone football.

Well when the QB becomes a fragile ballerina that nobody is allowed to touch, it changes things. Don't breathe on him when he enters that imaginary space between realms existing in that final inch after he is out of bounds, despite that he is rushing for a critical first down that could change the outcome of the game, or he'll get that first down plus 15 because you tried to stop it.

Doing the same thing in every sport. Neutering defense. Home runs sell. And it's not just defense, it's liberties with the rules on offense, too. I love watching Ja Morant, but he carries the fucking ball six times in a single possession, sometimes, LOL, I'm not even talking about a game.

It's disgusting, and it's ruining these sports, but oh well.

 

[My Spot]

So the ultimate retroactively deduced (i.e. not predictive) metric of performance pertaining to wins is Win Shares. This is calculated in numerous different ways. In baseball, there is WAR. In basketball, there is Win Shares itself, or more individually focused with less weight on team wins, also Real Plus-Minus. For the NFL, the the best version of this right now is Approximate Value. Football is dominated by a single position more than any other team sport, the Quarterback position, so it shouldn't be surprising they make up the lion's share of those at the top of this metric. It's an outcome that validates the metric.

So let's look at the Top 15 Career Approximate Value NFL players of all time.

15 Ben Roethlisberger 208
14 Matt Ryan 210
13 Bruce Matthews+ 215
12 Dan Marino+ 216
11 Philip Rivers 218
10 Ray Lewis+ 224
9 Bruce Smith+ 229
7 Reggie White+ 231
7 Aaron Rodgers 231
6 Fran Tarkenton+ 233
5 Jerry Rice+ 251
4 Brett Favre+ 259
3 Peyton Manning+ 271
2 Drew Brees 277
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1 Tom Brady 326


The distance between #1 Brady and #2 Brees is greater than the distance between #2 Brees and #9 Bruce Smith. Hell, it's more than double the difference between Aaron Rodgers and Matt Ryan. It's like the difference between Big Ben and Matt Stafford.

Thanks, I didn't know something like WS/WAR existed for football.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

Thanks, I didn't know something like WS/WAR existed for football.

It does, but if I’m not mistaken it’s a bit harder to calculate and draw definite conclusions from which is why coaches have been slower to adopt metrics driven analysis as a whole in the sport.


You mostly see the metrics in 2 point situations and 4th down situations -I’m personally not a fan. Seen it cost the Ravens (for example) too many times because John Harbaugh will make calls specifically off a chart he keeps on the stats. But context matters, and metrics don’t account for context in many of these situations. So.. it’s still a work in progress.

 

[My Spot]

It does, but if I’m not mistaken it’s a bit harder to calculate and draw definite conclusions from which is why coaches have been slower to adopt metrics driven analysis as a whole in the sport.


You mostly see the metrics in 2 point situations and 4th down situations -I’m personally not a fan. Seen it cost the Ravens (for example) too many times because John Harbaugh will make calls specifically off a chart he keeps on the stats. But context matters, and metrics don’t account for context in many of these situations. So.. it’s still a work in progress.

It also seems to favor rushing yards for QBs. Justin Fields was #5 in AV this past season for QBs. But no stat is perfect I guess.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

Well when the QB becomes a fragile ballerina that nobody is allowed to touch, it changes things. Don't breathe on him when he enters that imaginary space between realms existing in that final inch after he is out of bounds, despite that he is rushing for a critical first down that could change the outcome of the game, or he'll get that first down plus 15 because you tried to stop it.

Doing the same thing in every sport. Neutering defense. Home runs sell. And it's not just defense, it's liberties with the rules on offense, too. I love watching Ja Morant, but he carries the fucking ball six times in a single possession, sometimes, LOL, I'm not even talking about a game.

It's disgusting, and it's ruining these sports, but oh well.

It’s a money grab that throws away quality in favor of quantity. It’s reflected in decisions like the 17 game regular season too (which will eventually lead to an 18 game season with another playoff expansion). They really don’t seem interested in sitting down and improving the game itself, they’re more concerned with expanding their brand and it’s financial impact year to year more than they care about game quality.


Gambling adds a whole other level to this too.

It’s a shame for what id call ‘football purists’ who really only care about the sport itself and the chess match that occurs between two teams. The closest this league has ever gotten to almost perfect offensive and defensive symmetry was in the 90’s imo. I’d say that leading into the early 2000’s was the pinnacle of watching football purely for the enjoyment of the sport.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

It also seems to favor rushing yards for QBs. Justin Fields was #5 in AV this past season for QBs. But no stat is perfect I guess.

Depends on how you look at it -there was a stretch of 5-6 games where Fields was literally putting up close to 30 ppg on his own there with his legs being a primary constant.. remove Justin from those games and it’s likely the Bears lose by 30 in almost every one of them. His rushing carried the team and that’s likely why that stat places him where he is.


Kind of aside note.. but the issue with this style of play is longevity. Not only is injury a factor but stamina becomes a real issue too, it’s similar to why many KR’s and PR’s struggle to also get in on a number of offensive snaps. Devin Hester is a great example of this as his return stats suffered greatly after the Bears signed him to a bigger deal and felt compelled to validate the larger payout by shoehorning him into the offense as well as special teams. The result was a dip in production that was obvious to anyone with eyeballs. Another factor was special teams rule changes to the ‘wedge’ blocking scheme as well, but still..


Similarly, asking a QB to lead your team in rushing as well as passing is going to have its consequences. That’s why the Lamar Jackson’s of the world are Unicorns, it’s a monumental task.

 

[Madmick]

It also seems to favor rushing yards for QBs. Justin Fields was #5 in AV this past season for QBs. But no stat is perfect I guess.

Yeah, same Achilles heel that QBR has which is why QBR remains trash. QBR is getting better, though. As you can see, the biggest math nerds in sports analysis are embracing the WS/WAR/AV approach moving forward, and attempting to sophisticate it:
https://www.pff.com/war

The fact they place this approach at the center of all their advanced metric efforts indicates they understand it is the most valuable statistical endeavor in the sport. And, thus far, Brady stands head and shoulders above everyone else who ever played the game-- as an individual-- within that endeavor.

Finally, notice the same idiots who naysay Brady on this board were the ones dismissing Brock Purdy as a system QB. Of course, their idiocy was exposed the moment the tendon in his arm was ripped, and we got to see a 4th string play in that system. The math geeks had already noticed Purdy's excellence transcended systems or luck. And, as many had already noticed, Purdy wasn't the first QB to be dismissed by analysts as a poor talent, and taken deep in an "irrelevant" draft round.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/brock-purdy-was-mr-irrelevant-now-hes-mr-impossible/

 

[thegame2013]

Easily , owns every QB stats and is the greatest winner in NFL history.

 

[The XL]

Yes, and it's not particularly close.

 

[Michaelangelo]

Yes, because of the way football gives outsized importance to the quarterback position compared to others.

Well that’s why he deflated them

another asterisk for the LOAT

 

[SuperHoss]

A better question is, was it worth losing your family for the year you just had.

Well... was it, Tom? WAS IT??!!!!

LMFAO

Sherdog's Resident Sociopath. Please get your own family in order before preaching about family values and pretend to know the first thing about empathy or sympathy.

 

[SuperHoss]

Local radio host named off the stats of 3 players and asked whether or not each player was HOF worthy or not. Everyone agreed that all 3 players were HOF'ers.

The stats were Brady in his 20s, 30s and 40s.

https://www.deseret.com/sports/2021/2/10/22274678/tom-brady-accomplished-in-short-order-what-other-hall-of-game-qbs-took-careers-to-accomplish#:~:text=During the first seven years,Super Bowl titles, Aikman three.

 

[SuperHoss]

He's unrankable as a player and QB. Probably not a top 40 QB. He ruined the QB position by having success in a system that uses check downs and illegal pick plays that left wide open dink and dunks 80% of the time. People also seem to forget his entire defensive squad getting busted for roids in the early 2000s as well as spygate being a major factor in the success of most of his career. A lot easier to win when you've stolen the opponent's play sheets for the game from inside their hotels and locker rooms, then tamper with opponent head sets on crucial 3rd downs during home games so the opponent can't properly call a play.

Unrankable, and has the biggest asterisk next to his name than any QB probably ever will have. There is no player in the history of any sport who is more overrated.

What a bunch of bunk. Brady was not the first to use check downs, just arguably the best. LMAO about illegal picks. Patriots did not invent the crossing route. Nor did they use it with anymore effectiveness than most of the teams in the league.

I don't remember any Pats in the 2000s getting busted for Steroids besides Rodney Harrison. It is more likely he was using before he became a Patriots. Maybe I am forgetting a guy or two, but the rest is conspiracy theory smoke.

Spygate was about recording the signals for the team formations of the Bengals from a position closer than allowed. They paid a heavy price for what was really a relatively minor infraction for which other teams were not even fined for similar offenses. Every team tries to decode signals. Always have. Always will. Benefit to Brady's career is negligible at best.

Stealing player's playbooks and messing with headsets, that is pure conspiracy theory conjecture. If you have any legit sources for any of it, please prove me wrong. You won't.

 

['Rocky']

Oh, but I will.

here's the ESPN article illustrating just a fraction of the cheating shenanigans the Patriots were doing. Lol.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13533995/split-nfl-new-england-patriots-apart



Some highlights.

During games, Adams sat in the coaches' box, with binoculars and notes of decoded signals, wearing a headset with a direct audio line to Belichick. Whenever Adams saw an opposing coach's signal he recognized, he'd say something like, "Watch for the Two Deep Blitz," and either that information was relayed to Brady or a play designed specifically to exploit the defense was called.

There were regular rumors that the Patriots had taped the Rams' walk-through practice before Super Bowl XXXVI in February 2002, one of the greatest upsets in NFL history, a game won by the Patriots 20-17 on a last-second Adam Vinatieri field goal. The rumors and speculation reached a fever pitch in 2006. Before the season, a rule was proposed to allow radio communications to one defensive player on the field, as was already allowed for quarterbacks. If it had passed, defensive signals would have been unnecessary. But it failed. In 2007, the proposal failed once again, this time by two votes, with Belichick voting against it. (The rule change passed in 2008 after Spygate broke, with Belichick voting for it.) The allegations against the Patriots prompted NFL executive vice president of football operations Ray Anderson to send a letter to all 32 team owners, general managers and head coaches on Sept. 6, 2006, reminding them that "videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited from the sidelines."

But the Patriots kept doing it. In November 2006, Green Bay Packers security officials caught Matt Estrella shooting unauthorized footage at Lambeau Field. When asked what he was doing, according to notes from the Senate investigation of Spygate that had not previously been disclosed, Estrella said he was with Kraft Productions and was taping panoramic shots of the stadium. He was removed by Packers security. That same year, according to former Colts GM Bill Polian, who served for years on the competition committee and is now an analyst for ESPN, several teams complained that the Patriots had videotaped signals of their coaches. And so the Patriots -- and the rest of the NFL -- were warned again, in writing, before the 2007 season, sources say.

Looking back on it, several former Patriots coaches insist that spying helped them most against less sophisticated teams -- the Dolphins and Bills chief among them -- whose coaches didn't bother changing their signals. Even when they had the perfect play teed up, sometimes the system would fail, owing to human error. Several opposing coaches now say they wish they had messed with Belichick's head the way he had messed with theirs.

ON SEPT. 9, 2007, in the first game of the season, Estrella aimed a video camera at the New York Jets' sideline, unaware he was the target of a sting operation.

Mangini knew the Patriots did it, so he would have three Jets coaches signal in plays: One coach's signal would alert the players to which coach was actually signaling in the play. Still, Mangini saw it as a sign of disrespect that Belichick taped their signals -- "He's pissing in my face," he told a confidant -- and wanted it to end. Before the 2007 opener, sources say, he warned various Patriots staffers, "We know you do this. Don't do it in our house." Tannenbaum, who declined comment, told team security to remove any unauthorized cameramen on the field.

The Panthers now believe that their practices had been taped by the Patriots before Super Bowl XXXVIII in 2004. "Our players came in after that first half and said it was like [the Patriots] were in our huddle," a Panthers source says. During halftime -- New England led 14-10 -- Carolina's offensive coordinator, Dan Henning, changed game plans because of worries the Patriots had too close a read on Carolina's schemes. And, in the second half, the Panthers moved the ball at will before losing 32-29 on a last-second field goal. "Do I have any tape to prove they cheated?" this source says. "No. But I'm convinced they did it."

No player was more resolute that Spygate had affected games than Hines Ward, the Steelers' All-Pro wide receiver. Ward told reporters that Patriots inside information about Steelers play calling helped New England upset Pittsburgh 24-17 in the January 2002 AFC Championship Game. "Oh, they knew," Ward, now an NBC analyst who didn't return messages for this story, said after Spygate broke. "They were calling our stuff out. They knew a lot of our calls. There's no question some of their players were calling out some of our stuff."

Some of the Steelers' defensive coaches remain convinced that a deep touchdown pass from Brady to Deion Branch in the January 2005 AFC Championship Game, which was won by the Patriots 41-27, came from stolen signals because Pittsburgh hadn't changed its signals all year, sources say, and the two teams had played a game in the regular season that Walsh told investigators he believes was taped. "They knew the signals, so they knew when it went in what the coverage was and how to attack it," says a former Steelers coach. "I've had a couple of guys on my teams from New England, and they've told me those things."

When Spygate broke, some of the Eagles now believed they had an answer for a question that had vexed them since they lost to the Patriots 24-21 in Super Bowl XXXIX: How did New England seem completely prepared for the rarely used dime defense the Eagles deployed in the second quarter, scoring touchdowns on three of four drives? The Eagles suspected that either practices were filmed or a playbook was stolen. "To this day, some believe that we were robbed by the Patriots not playing by the rules ... and knowing our game plan," a former Eagles football operations staffer says.

It didn't matter that the Patriots went 18-1 in 2007. Or that they would average more wins a season after Spygate than before. Or that Belichick would come to be universally recognized as his generation's greatest coach. Or that many with the Patriots remain mystified at the notion that a historic penalty was somehow perceived to be lenient. The Patriots were forever branded as cheaters -- an asterisk, in the view of many fans, forever affixed to their wins. The NFL was all too aware of the damage baseball had suffered because of the steroids scandal, its biggest stars and most cherished records tarnished. After Spygate made headlines, rumors that had existed for years around the NFL that the Patriots had cheated in the Super Bowl that had propelled their run, against the Rams, were beginning to boil to the surface, threatening everything. "I don't think fans really want to know this -- they just want to watch football," the Panthers source says. "But if you tell them that the games aren't on the level, they'll care. Boy, will they care."

Then Specter turned to the alleged videotaping of the Rams' walk-through. Walsh confessed that after the Patriots' team picture, he and at least three other team videographers lingered around the Louisiana Superdome, setting up cameras for the game. Suddenly, the Rams arrived and started their walk-through. The three videographers, in full Patriots apparel, hung around, on the field and in the stands, for 30 minutes. Nobody said anything. Walsh said he observed star Rams running back Marshall Faulk line up in an unusual position: as a kickoff returner. That night, Walsh reported what he had seen to Patriots assistant coach Brian Daboll, who asked an array of questions about the Rams' formations. Walsh said that Daboll, who declined through the Patriots to comment for this story, drew a series of diagrams -- an account Daboll later denied to league investigators.

Faulk had returned only one kickoff in his career before the Super Bowl. Sure enough, in the second quarter, he lined up deep. The Patriots were ready: Vinatieri kicked it into a corner, leading Faulk out of bounds after gaining 1 yard.

During the walk-through, the Rams had also practiced some of their newly designed red zone plays. When they ran the same plays late in the Super Bowl's fourth quarter, the Patriots' defense was in position on nearly every down. On one new play, quarterback Kurt Warner rolled to his right and turned to throw to Faulk in the flat, where three Patriots defenders were waiting. On the sideline, Rams coach Mike Martz was stunned. He was famous for his imaginative, unpredictable plays, and now it was as if the Patriots knew what was coming on plays that had never been run before. The Patriots' game plan had called for a defender to hit Faulk on every down, as a means of eliminating him, but one coach who worked with an assistant on that 2001 Patriots team says that the ex-Pats assistant coach once bragged that New England knew exactly what the Rams would call in the red zone. "He'd say, 'A little birdie told us,'" the coach says now.

 

[SuperHoss]

Oh, but I will.

here's the ESPN article illustrating just a fraction of the cheating shenanigans the Patriots were doing. Lol.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13533995/split-nfl-new-england-patriots-apart



Some highlights.

During games, Adams sat in the coaches' box, with binoculars and notes of decoded signals, wearing a headset with a direct audio line to Belichick. Whenever Adams saw an opposing coach's signal he recognized, he'd say something like, "Watch for the Two Deep Blitz," and either that information was relayed to Brady or a play designed specifically to exploit the defense was called.

There were regular rumors that the Patriots had taped the Rams' walk-through practice before Super Bowl XXXVI in February 2002, one of the greatest upsets in NFL history, a game won by the Patriots 20-17 on a last-second Adam Vinatieri field goal. The rumors and speculation reached a fever pitch in 2006. Before the season, a rule was proposed to allow radio communications to one defensive player on the field, as was already allowed for quarterbacks. If it had passed, defensive signals would have been unnecessary. But it failed. In 2007, the proposal failed once again, this time by two votes, with Belichick voting against it. (The rule change passed in 2008 after Spygate broke, with Belichick voting for it.) The allegations against the Patriots prompted NFL executive vice president of football operations Ray Anderson to send a letter to all 32 team owners, general managers and head coaches on Sept. 6, 2006, reminding them that "videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited from the sidelines."

But the Patriots kept doing it. In November 2006, Green Bay Packers security officials caught Matt Estrella shooting unauthorized footage at Lambeau Field. When asked what he was doing, according to notes from the Senate investigation of Spygate that had not previously been disclosed, Estrella said he was with Kraft Productions and was taping panoramic shots of the stadium. He was removed by Packers security. That same year, according to former Colts GM Bill Polian, who served for years on the competition committee and is now an analyst for ESPN, several teams complained that the Patriots had videotaped signals of their coaches. And so the Patriots -- and the rest of the NFL -- were warned again, in writing, before the 2007 season, sources say.

Looking back on it, several former Patriots coaches insist that spying helped them most against less sophisticated teams -- the Dolphins and Bills chief among them -- whose coaches didn't bother changing their signals. Even when they had the perfect play teed up, sometimes the system would fail, owing to human error. Several opposing coaches now say they wish they had messed with Belichick's head the way he had messed with theirs.

ON SEPT. 9, 2007, in the first game of the season, Estrella aimed a video camera at the New York Jets' sideline, unaware he was the target of a sting operation.

Mangini knew the Patriots did it, so he would have three Jets coaches signal in plays: One coach's signal would alert the players to which coach was actually signaling in the play. Still, Mangini saw it as a sign of disrespect that Belichick taped their signals -- "He's pissing in my face," he told a confidant -- and wanted it to end. Before the 2007 opener, sources say, he warned various Patriots staffers, "We know you do this. Don't do it in our house." Tannenbaum, who declined comment, told team security to remove any unauthorized cameramen on the field.

The Panthers now believe that their practices had been taped by the Patriots before Super Bowl XXXVIII in 2004. "Our players came in after that first half and said it was like [the Patriots] were in our huddle," a Panthers source says. During halftime -- New England led 14-10 -- Carolina's offensive coordinator, Dan Henning, changed game plans because of worries the Patriots had too close a read on Carolina's schemes. And, in the second half, the Panthers moved the ball at will before losing 32-29 on a last-second field goal. "Do I have any tape to prove they cheated?" this source says. "No. But I'm convinced they did it."

No player was more resolute that Spygate had affected games than Hines Ward, the Steelers' All-Pro wide receiver. Ward told reporters that Patriots inside information about Steelers play calling helped New England upset Pittsburgh 24-17 in the January 2002 AFC Championship Game. "Oh, they knew," Ward, now an NBC analyst who didn't return messages for this story, said after Spygate broke. "They were calling our stuff out. They knew a lot of our calls. There's no question some of their players were calling out some of our stuff."

Some of the Steelers' defensive coaches remain convinced that a deep touchdown pass from Brady to Deion Branch in the January 2005 AFC Championship Game, which was won by the Patriots 41-27, came from stolen signals because Pittsburgh hadn't changed its signals all year, sources say, and the two teams had played a game in the regular season that Walsh told investigators he believes was taped. "They knew the signals, so they knew when it went in what the coverage was and how to attack it," says a former Steelers coach. "I've had a couple of guys on my teams from New England, and they've told me those things."

When Spygate broke, some of the Eagles now believed they had an answer for a question that had vexed them since they lost to the Patriots 24-21 in Super Bowl XXXIX: How did New England seem completely prepared for the rarely used dime defense the Eagles deployed in the second quarter, scoring touchdowns on three of four drives? The Eagles suspected that either practices were filmed or a playbook was stolen. "To this day, some believe that we were robbed by the Patriots not playing by the rules ... and knowing our game plan," a former Eagles football operations staffer says.

It didn't matter that the Patriots went 18-1 in 2007. Or that they would average more wins a season after Spygate than before. Or that Belichick would come to be universally recognized as his generation's greatest coach. Or that many with the Patriots remain mystified at the notion that a historic penalty was somehow perceived to be lenient. The Patriots were forever branded as cheaters -- an asterisk, in the view of many fans, forever affixed to their wins. The NFL was all too aware of the damage baseball had suffered because of the steroids scandal, its biggest stars and most cherished records tarnished. After Spygate made headlines, rumors that had existed for years around the NFL that the Patriots had cheated in the Super Bowl that had propelled their run, against the Rams, were beginning to boil to the surface, threatening everything. "I don't think fans really want to know this -- they just want to watch football," the Panthers source says. "But if you tell them that the games aren't on the level, they'll care. Boy, will they care."

Then Specter turned to the alleged videotaping of the Rams' walk-through. Walsh confessed that after the Patriots' team picture, he and at least three other team videographers lingered around the Louisiana Superdome, setting up cameras for the game. Suddenly, the Rams arrived and started their walk-through. The three videographers, in full Patriots apparel, hung around, on the field and in the stands, for 30 minutes. Nobody said anything. Walsh said he observed star Rams running back Marshall Faulk line up in an unusual position: as a kickoff returner. That night, Walsh reported what he had seen to Patriots assistant coach Brian Daboll, who asked an array of questions about the Rams' formations. Walsh said that Daboll, who declined through the Patriots to comment for this story, drew a series of diagrams -- an account Daboll later denied to league investigators.

Faulk had returned only one kickoff in his career before the Super Bowl. Sure enough, in the second quarter, he lined up deep. The Patriots were ready: Vinatieri kicked it into a corner, leading Faulk out of bounds after gaining 1 yard.

During the walk-through, the Rams had also practiced some of their newly designed red zone plays. When they ran the same plays late in the Super Bowl's fourth quarter, the Patriots' defense was in position on nearly every down. On one new play, quarterback Kurt Warner rolled to his right and turned to throw to Faulk in the flat, where three Patriots defenders were waiting. On the sideline, Rams coach Mike Martz was stunned. He was famous for his imaginative, unpredictable plays, and now it was as if the Patriots knew what was coming on plays that had never been run before. The Patriots' game plan had called for a defender to hit Faulk on every down, as a means of eliminating him, but one coach who worked with an assistant on that 2001 Patriots team says that the ex-Pats assistant coach once bragged that New England knew exactly what the Rams would call in the red zone. "He'd say, 'A little birdie told us,'" the coach says now.

The Seth Wickersham article. I have to give you credit for research.

Problem with this article is the same it always was. Almost everything in the article is speculation from opponents with sour grapes and no proof. Believe, think, suspect...that is not fact.

Ernie Adams did steal signals when he could and radioed them to Belichick. No surprise, but as Jimmy Johnson, Bill Cowher and numerous other coaches have stated... Everybody does it. Videotaping from the sidelines was restricted and that is just what the Patriots were caught doing. That is Spygate. Note the distinction "from the sidelines". Videotaping and stealing signals is legal, just not from the sidelines or closer proximity.

 

[Strychnine]

I used to fate this southern chick that made it from scratch, man...that shit was excellent.

Had that for breakfast this morning!

 

['Rocky']

The Seth Wickersham article. I have to give you credit for research.

Problem with this article is the same it always was. Almost everything in the article is speculation from opponents with sour grapes and no proof. Believe, think, suspect...that is not fact.

Ernie Adams did steal signals when he could and radioed them to Belichick. No surprise, but as Jimmy Johnson, Bill Cowher and numerous other coaches have stated... Everybody does it. Videotaping from the sidelines was restricted and that is just what the Patriots were caught doing. That is Spygate. Note the distinction "from the sidelines". Videotaping and stealing signals is legal, just not from the sidelines or closer proximity.

 

[StonedLemur]

Had that for breakfast this morning!

Love that stuff sir.
Im jealous lol

 

[My Spot]

Pretty sad that people still use the "system QB" argument.