is there a bias against size/strength in grappling

"you'er big, you'er strong, you'er flexable, you used a crutch..."

"No, I won. Period".
 
strength will only get you so far... once you get to a certain level you cant just "muscle" many people and technique is necessary. I utilize my strength and often can just mandhandle people but ive faced people with better technique and i look like a fool despite my strength advantage
 
"I beat him despite his strength and size"

"He only beat me because of his strength and size"

I know which is one is the quote of a winner.
 
Strength goes against what Judo/JJ/BJJ were created for in the first place, if you can't see that... then that's probably because you're "that guy".
 
Didnt read through the responses [mainly b/c this has been talked about before from diff. angles]
You should do what you have to do in tournaments but when you're with your training partners, then work on technique.
 
White Spats said:
Strength goes against what Judo/JJ/BJJ were created for in the first place, if you can't see that... then that's probably because you're "that guy".
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Which is why Roger Gracie has an s+c coach in Martin Rooney (whose book isn't too good btw), but at least he's acknowledging being stronger is an advantage over your competition.
 
White Spats said:
Strength goes against what Judo/JJ/BJJ were created for in the first place, if you can't see that... then that's probably because you're "that guy".
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Actually, Kano's philosophy in starting judo was the efficient use of strength, not the non-use of strength. Same thing for efficient use of speed, efficient use of flexibility. The approach in judo of not using strength came with Mifune after Kano's death. Mifune was arguably the best judo competitor ever, with exceptional timing, and threw people effortlessly most of the time. Even Kimura was in awe of Mifune (some of that would be the normal Japanese respect for an accomplished elder, but most of it was Mifune's record of never losing in Kodokan shia while weighing much less than most of them).

However, if you do national level and higher judo competitions, you'll notice everyone is very strong, very fast (at least for their size ... 300 pounders aren't as quick as 120 pounders :icon_chee) and very flexible. They also do various kinds of resistance training, including weights. The people pushing the non-strength in judo tend to be non-competitors who spend their time doing kata :icon_chee

You can't even stand up without strength. Strength is not a bad thing. Using strength without technique is a bad thing, just as using speed without technique or flexibility without technique are bad things ... because you're not using good technique. The point is to use what physical abilities you have in the most efficient way, not to fight as if you were 90 years old. Helio Gracie has far better technique than any of us will ever has, but he is so old most of us could now beat him (to avoid the inevitable complaints I know that in his prime - or even in his 60's- he'd tap most of us embarrassingly quickly).
 
blanko said:
roger is getting ready for mma.
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I lent the book out so I can't referance it directly, but I found this in a review of the book online:

Renzo Gracie's introduction points out very clearly why you should take an interest in what Rooney has to say, "even though (when he began training with Renzo) he was not very technical, his strength and speed were saving him against some of the techniques".

And granted they're talking about BJJ from an MMA point of view, but I don't having a gi on completely negates the value of being stronger and more explosive than your opponent of equal size (I'm not talking about just barreling over someone half your size).
 
YeahBee said:
How dare you say that!!! I challenge you to a duel
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Okay, but we're going to put the weapons 100 meters away from us so we have to sprint to get them :icon_twis

Though actually at over 200 pounds I'm not exactly greased lightening myself :redface:
 
I think relying on strength is more a problem for noobs. For example, we have a new guy who is crazy strong. I mean a real monster. He dominates most whie belts easily because of his far superior strength. Because of this, he doesn't bother to learn good technique. If he continues like this, he'll eventually hit a wall. His greats trength won't substitute for skill when all of those guys he's dominating eventually earn blue belts.
If he is able to combine his strength with even decent technique, he'll be scary.
 
not sure about full grappling but in wrestling if someone out-muscles you then youve gotta be quick or have very good tech to beat him, most people do assume that the stronger guy is gonna win and thats not always true
 
There is a diference betweem relying on strength and using it to your advantage. I agree that someone shouldn't rely on their strength in lieu of progress in technical training and skill but to be expected to handicap one's self because some smaller guy didn't pay his dues at the iron pile is pure self serving bullshit on the part of the smaller whiner.

The comment that BJJ was intended for small people couldn't illustrate my point any better. What I'm supposed to loose 100lbs because Helio was a small guy and little dudes looking for an excuse find inspiration in a twisting of words? No, of course not. BJJ was intended to help smaller people but was certainly not exculsionary of any body type or skill level. Helio means his JJ for everyone.

Or look at it this way, Helio founded his system on self defense. So the next time you're fighting for your life be sure to hold back on the strength thing because being true to non strength skill takes precident over winning in all sense of the word.
 
JRT6 said:
There is a diference betweem relying on strength and using it to your advantage. I agree that someone shouldn't rely on their strength in lieu of progress in technical training and skill but to be expected to handicap one's self because some smaller guy didn't pay his dues at the iron pile is pure self serving bullshit on the part of the smaller whiner.

The comment that BJJ was intended for small people couldn't illustrate my point any better. What I'm supposed to loose 100lbs because Helio was a small guy and little dudes looking for an excuse find inspiration in a twisting of words? No, of course not. BJJ was intended to help smaller people but was certainly not exculsionary of any body type or skill level. Helio means his JJ for everyone.

Or look at it this way, Helio founded his system on self defense. So the next time you're fighting for your life be sure to hold back on the strength thing because being true to non strength skill takes precident over winning in all sense of the word.
Click to expand...

Very well said.
 
JRT6 said:
There is a diference betweem relying on strength and using it to your advantage. I agree that someone shouldn't rely on their strength in lieu of progress in technical training and skill but to be expected to handicap one's self because some smaller guy didn't pay his dues at the iron pile is pure self serving bullshit on the part of the smaller whiner.

The comment that BJJ was intended for small people couldn't illustrate my point any better. What I'm supposed to loose 100lbs because Helio was a small guy and little dudes looking for an excuse find inspiration in a twisting of words? No, of course not. BJJ was intended to help smaller people but was certainly not exculsionary of any body type or skill level. Helio means his JJ for everyone.

Or look at it this way, Helio founded his system on self defense. So the next time you're fighting for your life be sure to hold back on the strength thing because being true to non strength skill takes precident over winning in all sense of the word.
Click to expand...

cosign 100%
 
Who had the quote: "You can never be too strong, and you can never have too much technique."

Screw the debate. Just do your technique work AND your strength and conditioning and have both.
 
go ahead and use your strength in training...you will suffer from it.
In training, roll slow and you will learn more and faster.


In a competition, roll to win.
 
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