Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by devante, May 8, 2008.
+10 points for a literary referance in an MMA forum
I only ever saw the movie, what is the name of the book by chance? Same?
I for one dont have a problem with a strong guy being strong. What he needs to realize though is you cant be on top all the time. Usually the break in the "gorilla" mentality comes when they grapple with people who match or exceed them physically and are much better technicians. Then all the powering out and exploding is pretty much useless. But as a guy develops I think its important to remind them if two guys are equal in regards to tech, and cardio the stronger guys tend to win.
No one likes to get man handled, but the truth is if you get into a scrap with a brawler, he is going to go absolute apeshit and try to muscle you, pile drive out of armlocks, etc. So its not terrible to be exposed to stronger people in the training enviroment IMO.
All the big dumb meatheads who say things like "you're FAST!" are dead wrong. My speed is not an inherent property of my muscle fibers or whatever. I'm actually slow as hell at running/boxing/whatever. It's because I've drilled the moves until they are second nature, and I can execute them without thinking at the proper time. The only unfair advantage I'm using is that I'm better at jiu jitsu than they are.
The only time I tell people not to use strength is when I feel like I'm rolling with the incredible hulk. I'm a very small guy, and sometimes huge guys will toss me around like a rag doll. How is that making their jiu jitsu better? They aren't going to be able to do that with anyone within 20 lbs of their weight. The reason they do it (and later complain about it in threads) is because they have huge egos and hate to lose to the little guy. I'm better at jiu jitsu, I have better technique. Just because you can "win" in training by being twice my size does NOT mean you are using optimal technique, or that your way of doing things is "just as good" because you won. There are things that I can teach you that will make you better against guys your own weight. You can either "win", or you can learn something.
This is not me stroking my own ego, there are lots of guys 100x better than me. The same things applies if you were rolling with Royler or Robson Moura. You might be able to hold your own or stall by using pure strength and spazzing, but you'd learn a hell of a lot more by holding back the spazzing.
I think you should rely on technique in practice and training.
If you can muscle a guy into or out of a submission or position in a comp, fuck him.
I've always just believed in rolling like you would compete or fight (as long as it's against someone even or better than you. If you're a brown beating up on a white belt and powering out of everything to save yourself, theres a problem). I've been flat out overpowered by bigger guys before and it doesn't bother me. It makes it more of a challenge really and prepares you for the worst. You're not going to encounter anyone that isn't going to use their speed and strength against you in a competition so you might as well get used to it in live rolling.
Purely drilling technique is another story.
u have to be exposed to strength, to have someone just work tech is ridiculous; in no other arena, mma/grappling/etc will u have an opp w/an athletic adv not use it. If a guy on the street or in the cage or on the mat knows he can manhandle u, he will; an if he has close to or equal tech to u he will murder u. Tech only dominates when there is a big enough gap to neutralize the strength adv; when skills are close and the person has a strength adv that will be the determining factor and vice versa.
an im not just talking about big strong guys, im talking about the normal size guys who are strong and can manhandle the big strong guys; guys in ur weightclass who can run u over cus of the disparity.
everyone is prepared for tech, u drill that all the time; but i feel u need to be ready for the attributes as well, because those will come into play. If all u ever do is roll w/people weaker or as strong as u; the first time u face someone w/strength he will manhandle, esp if he has comparable skillset...he will run u into the ground because of ur inexperience at dealing w/it.
i agree, people need to be prepared for the worst and if u face an opp ur able to outclass tech; he will go to where he has an adv be it strength, explosiveness, power, stamin and if u have been only dealing w/guys on a tech basis u will be in for the shock of ur life. You have to be prepared for everything and ignoring attribute based attacks is nuts; i have rolled w/some really good people before, but one of the hardest two i rolled w/was an ex boxer who was a bluebelt in bjj/dis alot of catch as well. He was about 30 pounds smaller than me, but just as strong; an extremely wiry and explosive, he just was impossible for me to slow down, cus of his frame and his penchant for exploding into and out of position. Tech he was good, but i had rolled w/better and not gotten tapped as many times; it was the attributes that really hurt me, not his skills.
another time i rolled w/a judoka, not half as good as most of the people i rolled w/groundwork wise; but his strength was nuts, everytime he put his hands on me it hurt, after we grappled i was just out/dead. He couldnt finish me, an i had moments where i almost caught him; but the fact of the matter was after we were done i had to crawl off the mat and he was like what is next. Tech on the ground he was alright, not better than me; an alot worse than people i had rolled w/but his strength was incredible, even the collegiate wrestlers who were coming through we just amazed by how much horsepower he had and some of them had 20 and 30 pounds on him.
point being strength can make a huge diff, esp when ur not used to dealing w/it; just like tech can when u aren't used to dealing w/it.
I have no problem with bigger stronger guys using it on me, as I'm almost to a point where I can handle it, but I get upset seeing a 200lb plus white belt tossing around a 140lb white belt with the same experience. In competition use your size and strength, against guys with more experience use it for all i care, but I don't think you are improving by doing so.
Some people have accused me of being quick, and I find it pretty funny because those are usually the people that are handing me the moves that they are getting caught in. I've never rolled with anyone my own experience level or better that described what I did as quick, mainly because they seem the same things i do and move to intercept them.
I can't comment on flexibility b/c i really am about as inflexible as you will see in this sport. I've also never ran into someone that made me say "damn if only that guy wasn't so flexible I would have not been caught or submitted him."
Really when I roll I don't try and justify why someone was able to do this or that other then "I'm just not good enough right now" and right now I'm not good enough to submit everyone and I'll keep working until I can .
Actually, your first comment applies to strength as well. There are a lot of people I've worked with who lift far more than me who tell me that I feel damn strong. But most of the time its just body positioning after years of wrestling and judo ... I feel strong because they're trying to move my whole body with just their arms. Funny how hard that can be :icon_chee A lot of what is called strength is just good technique in position. Its also not uncommon to be told you feel heavy by people heavier than you (sometimes you have to get on a scale to prove that they are, in fact, bigger) ... most of the time saying someone is using strength is just an excuse.
In fact, I think its interesting that when I roll with higher belts in BJJ I never hear about how strong I am, or that I'm using too much strength - I've yet to have a purple belt complain when I was able to take them down, get and maintain side mount because of strength, they tend to recognize good wrestling and/or judo, just as I recognize the good technique they use if I lose control and they sub me.
Its always white belts and blue belts who complain about using strength - "you'd never have gotten side control if you weren't so strong" or "man, you just blew past my sprawl with strength". By now I don't even bother pointing out that their sprawl needs work, or that they're trying to put on subs from an inferior position, figuring its not worth it, they'll learn better as they get better technique themselves. I think what adds to it is that everyone knows I'm a wrestler (the instructor has me teach takedowns), and in BJJ it seems people automatically assume wrestlers get position by overpowering people ... the theory being I guess that to make a wrestler you just go to the gym, get the strongest guy you can find, put a singlet on him and send him off to glory :icon_twis
i said it b4 if someone who is not as good as u or close is able to just muscle u or dominate u based on ability, then ur not as good as u think and u need to improve.
secondly at the higher levels they are accustomed to those attributes, an are at such a level where they can diffuse them.
a striking analogy-i had a friend who had great natural ko power, even boxing coached noticed; he tried his hand at boxing amateur but got tooled by the better guys, why. Because at the higher end they have dealt w/power or speed or athletic guys, if u don't have the skills to follow through ur ability won't be good enough; against the lower caliber or limited guys, yes u will be fine. But when u have to face the better guys ur adv, while noticeable won't be the determining factor in any fight at all. Unless ur just that good and it becomes the decisive force; if u and ur opp are equal skilled, ability will seperate u.
Technique, Strength, Cardio, Speed, Flexibility, Heart.
They are all equal in value.
vouch, i hate people who say that...
i can understanding when drilling technique, you dont want to try and strength anything, you want to just practise the mechanics, however when rolling, you need to use the tools you have, unless your going against someone with a disadvantage, such as a guy who weighs 40 pounds less than i am, i wont just bench press him and flip him over if hes on top in side control just because i can... i believe to develop your game you need to know wat your capable of, you gotta use your tools, learning how much power you need to put into something to not burn yourself out, or to not have to reset and go for the second attempt
That whole post is the truth.
While I do work out I have never been what is considered "strong" for my weight. But when grappling (especially standing up) guys would comment on my strength.
Leverage and angles are the key but I do think that grapplers get functional grappling strength as well that might not translate to a weight bench.
my favorite reply when someone says "youre strong" and means it as if to say, "you muscled me because youre bigger" is to say:
"yeah, man you need to hit the weight room." this way, if they meant it as a backdoor insult, they almost feel the need to explain thier underhandedness, which gives me the opportunity to explain how im stronger AND better.
It seems pretty strange that an entire "niche" would/could consider strength and using it a bad thing.
What bugs me, and I've even noticed it in this thread quite a few times, are people who talk about strength and technique like they are mutually exclusive.
A large part of good technique is knowing when to apply your strength. What separates good technique and use of strength, and spazzing, is spazzers tend to use excessive strength, and use their strength when it's not needed.
Jiu jitsu is usually quick bursts of speed, strength, and movement followed by a lull in the action, and then another burst and then another lull. The cycle continues. Good BJJ'ers know exactly how and when to apply their strength and explosiveness, combined with good technique to accomplish whatever they are attempting, be it a guard pass, a transition, an escape, etc.
Good technique is good efficiency. Newbies and spazzers are not usually efficient in their use of strength. They end up wasting energy and gassing out fairly quickly. They might say be 30-40% efficient in their use of energy, while a good/technical BJJ'er might be around 70-80% efficient in his use of energy. Obviously no one can be 100% efficient in their movements, but I think one of the best long term goals to set for yourself is to achieve maximum efficiency of movement with the least amount of wasted energy.
I think the reason people frown on excessive use of your size and strength is because it will change hwo you fight. If you fight with really clen technique, adn don't use yoru strength advantage, it will help you out when you face people who are capable of matching or exceeding your strength.
it builds up your technique to point that you dont need to muscle it, but then if you do need to, you can be more successful. one of our brown belts is areally great grappler, and hes a big guy. he'll clean up when facing guys his own size because his technique is so smooth and doesn't rely on strength. So when he h as to add in the strength, it makes him the better overall grappler.
Hands down the issue with strength is it's A BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG advantage.
If you're a lot stronger you don't need more then rudimentary technique.
It takes a LOT of technique to counter strength.
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