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is there a bias against size/strength in grappling

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by devante, May 8, 2008.

  1. georgejjr Black Belt

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    He cross trains in judo at the Budokwai judo in England, where a lot of their olympians (including some medalists) work out. Apparently they're pretty impressed by his physical abilities. I agree he's not at the Jacare level, but he's still a top level athlete - you have to work out with people at that level to realize just how good they are athletically. Same thing for any professional sport btw ... people sit back in their couches and think (maybe to themselves) that with a bit more skill they could play in the NBA or NFL or NHL etc. Its only when you get a chance to play against guys at that level that you realize just how athletic even the worst of them are.

    I got a chance to play recreational hockey (company sponsored charity) with a few journeyman NHL'ers ... any thoughts that maybe I could have made it to the big leagues evaporated in seconds, and they were taking it very easy on us. I guess that's why even the journeymen make a million or more a year. I used to think I was fast on skates too :icon_cry2
     
  2. JRT6 Black Belt

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    I must be doing it wrong because I rather infrequently can muscle anyone into anything.
     
  3. Q mystic Silver Belt

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    Yes. Always use your best...depending on the situation....you know what we mean.:icon_lol:

    Spazzes ARE cool.

    Efficiency from there.

    Don't buy the 'you are a spaz' deal...unless you are just 'working' together.

    Go hard and fast. ...they'll get used to it.
     
  4. kenban judan orange belt, i think

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    just rereading what i initially wrote; i don't want to come off the wrong way:

    agreed, grappling isn't crouching tiger shit - strength is another piece of the puzzle, and rolling with all these powerlifting-jitsu practitioners in my class is a necessary evil
     
  5. IrishBeatDown**** Banned Banned

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    ok i am definity that strong guy who relies on his strength. i walk around at about 165 and bench 340 raw, squat 520 (suited)... i can outmuscle guys in much higher weight classes than me most of the time because throughout high school and up until about 6 months ago i was exclusively a competetive powerlifter... i had a short stint with wrestling that does help me a little bit as well...

    that being said, being a stronger guy does nothing for you offensively... you ussually can't muscle a guy into submission (exception being i can ussually squeeze a guys jaw hard enough that he taps out if i can't get the throat for a choke)

    HOWEVER, being an Ox helps ALOT defensively... i can flex my way out of some pretty tight arm and knee bars and good luck getting an americana or similar submission on me...

    likewise we have a distinct advantage in take down ability and reversals, the right amount of strength will beat perfect technique EVERY time... its rare you hear something like that but in the case of sweeps and take downs it is true... if you weigh 155 lbs and a guy who squats 520 is trying to lift you from a double leg take down i don't care how good your sprawl is... your going to hit the ground.

    so... in my experience when i am grappling with someone i usually succeed only in frustrating them... i usually win position but without technique guys like me cannot get the submission... we lay and pray... unless we get stuck in a choke... muscle doesn't do much without blood going to the brain.
     
  6. BJJ Padawan White Belt

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    Everyone in my class is bigger than me. I weight in at 156-160. The closest person to my weight is 210 pounds. Everyone else is bigger. They use there strenght and weight all the time. I'll get someone in a kimora and they just muscle out of it. They keep telling me that it will make me better. But, I thing I am the class dummy that everyone knows they cam submit because they are bigger and stronger. If I didn't love BJJ so much. I would have quit long ago, just like the rest of the small guys.
     
  7. KickBoxer23 Blue Belt

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    Any new grappler can use strength to tap out a weaker person but you can't bring a new guy in who is flexible and have him tap anybody out. Flexibility can help you out once you hit the colored belts and strength helps you out as a white belt and maybe teaches you bad habits that can hurt you later on.
     
  8. DaRuckus337 Black Belt

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    People who whine about strength or quickness or flexibility in athletics are probably the same people who whine about smarter people getting better jobs and more attractive people getting more sex.
     
  9. Kyuktooki Blue Belt

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    I try not to use my strength because I want to be as technical as possible yet I too understand why the author of this thread thinks its kind of a bias. I too hate when I get someone in a nice submission that I barely used any of my strength for and they tell me I am strong. Usually I was planning what I was going to do a step or two ahead to get that submission or quickly capitalized on a mistake they made. I wait to use my strength on competition or sparring against guys my size or whom have much better technique than me.
     
  10. blanko Guest

    we are talking about extreme atheletic ability. Heck i knew guys who were 5'5 and could dunk the ball. That's an great athelete. My friend could run a 4.4 40 but he didn't consider himself a phenonmial athelete.

    for all those who say "oh they talk about how strong i am all the time". When someone says "wow you are very smooth and fluid, especially for a guy your size" that's what a bjj guy should be aiming for. I know cus i have met guys like that, even if they were blue belts.
     
  11. blanko Guest

    as for flexibility.. i see alot flexible guys using thier flexibility as a crutch these days, espeically to get out of bad positions. What is that thing that eddie bravo does from side mount? Felxible guys use that now... And it works for about two weeks... and then they have to learn how to escape side mount all over again.
     
  12. Waxwingslain oiseau rebelle

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    Strength is only a problem if it's holding you back from learning technique.
     
  13. Scruff Dog Black Belt

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    and thats usually exactly what it does.

    im one of the strongest guys on my team and quite frankly this thread sounds like a bunch of strong guys and possibly spazzers having a pity party about some imaginary bias. its not a question of getting the tap, its a question of how you will develop as a BJJ player in the long term. theres a bigger picture here.

    raw power, especially the way it gets applied at the white belt level, generally runs counter to the flow that defines jiu-jitsu. speed, flexibility, reach, etc. simply dont. there is a time and a place (and a particular way) to use strength in jiu-jitsu, but you need to develop quite a bit before any of that becomes readily apparent. i had to abandon my strength for quite some time before i could learn to use it in a way that makes sense. if you think its okay for you to muscle garbage tech then you simply arent rolling with enough blues and purples, or they arent doing enough to embarass you into learning the right way.

    the bottom line is that you dont know more than the people telling you not to use strength, and you arent better than them. maybe you should drop the civil rights movement and listen.
     
  14. the heed Look at the size of that boy's heed.

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    see Jeff Monson
     
  15. whipyourasstyle Exitus acta probat

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    Using strength INSTEAD of tech to escape, crank, transition is bad, Just as using speed or flexibility INSTEAD of tech is also bad.

    For example if your super flexible and get caught in armbars all the time but manage to wriggle out 'cause your arm/elbow is like a rubber band, that is extremely BAD.

    If your using strength to escape mount 'cause you can bench press 4x (and after the inevitable armbar) and curl 2x your opponents BW that is also just as BAD.
     
  16. georgejjr Black Belt

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    Actually speed and flexibility are just as often used against the flow (or to avoid the flow completely) as strength is. Moreover, good technique is all about the proper use of strength (and speed and flexibility) rather than not using strength ... without strength you cannot even stand up, cannot roll over. If you've ever had a very ill relative (cancer for instance :icon_sad:) you'll know what I mean.

    Technique is about using the proper sequence of moves with exact placement, balance, timing and planning. Strength, speed and flexibility are means of by passing your opponent's reactions, either by overpowering them (strength), moving faster than them (speed), or moving out of their range (flexibility). Speed and flexibility in particular depend upon youth, and speed is very hard to train because ultimately it depends upon your ratio of muscle fibre types.

    But if you're going to compete at national levels in any grappling discipline (judo, wrestling, BJJ, submission grappling) you're going to need strength, speed and flexibility. I don't think you'll find a single competitor who will tell you otherwise.
     
  17. NeobloodVVI White Belt

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    I think the "how good you are" should be measured subjectively. If you want to judge how good someones technique is, let him grapple exhausted, if someone is only bendy, let him grapple with sour muscles, if someone is fast, let him grapple in water.

    All these things are individual, and as you seek to learn about who is the best, you should not be allowed to rip the athlete of any other genetic supremacy. Every little factor counts, even the length of your hair, i am serious. If you want to find out who is the best, you have to face that although your technique is better, you can lose. I knew somebody that has never trained in any grappling art and won a local tournament by simply hugging any opponent and squeezing him; he broke two peoples ribs. But he won, without ANY technique. This is a hard reality-fact everybody has to face.

    I think we only can judge, or draw comparisons only in terms of "better technique". Unfortunately, any factor, if big enough, is seemingly capable of erasing any other.

    I apologize for any grammar or spelling mistakes

    Ako
     
  18. B3rserk3R Brown Belt

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    I'm still really new to BJJ and grappling so I can't talk on exactly how strength and grappling interact specifically, but I do have a couple observations.

    One is that everyone seems to pretty much agree that you need to be explosive. You can't throw someone over a period of 5 seconds, and I've never been put in a slow triangle. Power (ie explosiveness) is strength x speed, so one way to get more explosive is to get stronger. This is why Louie Simmons of Westside BB emphasis both in his training methods.

    The second is that even the "tech" guys have some serious sport specific strength. I've especially noticed this with grip strength. Everyone I've met whose been grappling with dedication for any amount of time consistently has an ironclad grip, even the 140lbs "technique" guys. New people that haven't done much lifting...not so much. Now I'm pretty sure thay when they set out to do BJJ it wasn't to allow them to open stubborn jars, but the demands of the sport have toughened up their hands and strengthened their forearms, etc. So it seems that you could work past your girlscout grip by grappling alone, but cutting out the middle man with a healthy dose of grip-intesinve strength work (deadlifts, chin ups, etc) would improve your game a lot faster.
     
  19. Darkslide632 Brown Belt

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  20. Art Vandelay Latex Salesman

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    There will always be bias against strength and size in a sport with weight classes, or a martial art, which by their nature attract a large number of small individuals seeking the ability to defend against larger, stronger adversaries.

    I think people should use what they have. If they use strength, length, flexibility, etc as a crutch and limit the development of their game and skills, too bad for them. Obviously this does not apply if you are the instructor or superior, and they should follow your advice to rely less on "x".

    Let's not get all Harrison Bergeron on the mat.
     

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