Is the era of elite eastern European boxers coming to an end?

[treelo]

for every middle class world champion anyone can name, i reckon i could name 50 from poor families and backgrounds

 

[defjaam]

Usyk doesn't exactly come from poverty.

That's not what the man himself says..




Kids from Bel Air don't consider making a living with their fists an option.

 

[treelo]

a bit like the "Joshua is from a middle class background"

he lived with his single parent mum on an estate in Watford selling drugs and being in gangs

wouldnt like to see what this guy thinks is lower class if that is middle

 

[Tatra]

RJJ and Usyk are 2 examples, do you know how many world champions there have been?

Joshua was a from a broken home living in a shitty part of the UK and was involved in gangs and was caught selling drugs, hardly a middle class background now

Coming from a broken home doesn't mean shit. He did NOT grow up in poverty (virtually no one does in Britain). If he personally was involved in gangs, that's a decision he made. In reality he was just a bit unruly and hung around with other angsty boys. It's not like he was in favela-type conditions. He didn't struggle and nothing he experienced growing up can be described as 'poverty'. How the hell does selling drugs and being a member of a "gang" (LOL) mean he wasn't middle-class? The idea the little bit of suffering he (didn't actually) experienced played a role in honing him into one of the best HWs of the past 20 years is a fucking joke. Okay I'll reason with you... he grew up lower middle class.

And I gave you four examples: RJJ, Joshua, Usyk & Fury. All grew up in conditions that no serious person would call poverty-stricken. They all became great. But let's take a look at some more... Amir Khan, not great but was at one point the top 140lber in the world. Solidly middle class. Danny Garcia, Teofimo, Loma, Inoue, Nakatani... which of these grew up in poverty? At most, they struggled a LITTLE bit, but nothing close to poverty-stricken.

 

[Tatra]

Maybe not quite poverty but still lower class. Usyk's family couldn't even afford to buy him standard football/soccer equipment which is why he switched to boxing in the first place.

Usyk told The Ring: “Because my family didn’t have money to buy my football training, to go to competitions, my uniform. My father said ‘hey Alex, we have money for rent, for apartment and food.’

“But I have shoes, shorts and gloves, old gloves.. old horse hair gloves, was my first gloves, my father gave me.. Boxing was free.”

Here's a couple more quotes from Usyk.

'My family didn't have any money. My father and my mumma would work to get money for food and T-shirts. My father would say to me, "Son, I know you want to do this but we don't have the opportunity". I would say, "OK, no problem, it doesn't matter".

'I would go to work, I would try to get more money, I would teach to help pay for things. Dancing, music, boxing. Every part of my life has given me power.'

So I was right. They had to suffer a little (barely), nothing close to poverty. They had money for food, clothes & rent.

That's not what the man himself says..




Kids from Bel Air don't consider making a living with their fists an option.

See above.

Kids from Bel Air are irrelevant. You're taking an extreme and presenting it as your main argument.

Middle class or lower middle class is not poverty. No where close. Toughness is something within you, just like punching power... you're born with it, it's not something you can obtain. Many great boxers have come from dire poverty, but many have not. I think it's close to 50/50. I see no evidence that growing up in poverty helps to create a greater boxer.

 

[treelo]

Coming from a broken home doesn't mean shit. He did NOT grow up in poverty (virtually no one does in Britain). If he personally was involved in gangs, that's a decision he made. In reality he was just a bit unruly and hung around with other angsty boys. It's not like he was in favela-type conditions. He didn't struggle and nothing he experienced growing up can be described as 'poverty'. How the hell does selling drugs and being a member of a "gang" (LOL) mean he wasn't middle-class? The idea the little bit of suffering he (didn't actually) experienced played a role in honing him into one of the best HWs of the past 20 years is a fucking joke. Okay I'll reason with you... he grew up lower middle class.

And I gave you four examples: RJJ, Joshua, Usyk & Fury. All grew up in conditions that no serious person would call poverty-stricken. They all became great. But let's take a look at some more... Amir Khan, not great but was at one point the top 140lber in the world. Solidly middle class. Danny Garcia, Teofimo, Loma, Inoue, Nakatani... which of these grew up in poverty? At most, they struggled a LITTLE bit, but nothing close to poverty-stricken.

you are the one who said poverty, i said a poor background, there is a difference


i dont know if you are from Ethiopia or something, but middle class means something completely different in my country

 

[Tatra]

he lived with his single parent mum on an estate in Watford selling drugs and being in gangs

That is NOT poverty and what the hell does coming from a single parent home, selling drugs & being in some petty little gang have to do with this? Are you saying there are no kids from middle class backgrounds that tick all those boxes? We're talking about POVERTY, not simply not growing up in a cushty home with everything you need. He did NOT suffer. His upbringing did NOT have an impact on him becoming a highly successful boxer.

 

[treelo]

That is NOT poverty and what the hell does coming from a single parent home, selling drugs & being in some petty little gang have to do with this? Are you saying there are no kids from middle class backgrounds that tick all those boxes? We're talking about POVERTY, not simply not growing up in a cushty home with everything you need. He did NOT suffer. His upbringing did NOT have an impact on him becoming a highly successful boxer.

no, YOU said poverty, everyone else said poor

 

[Tatra]

you are the one who said poverty, i said a poor background, there is a difference


i dont know if you are from Ethiopia or something, but middle class means something completely different in my country

You're backtracking. If a poor upbringing creates a better boxer, then by definition the poorer your upbringing, the better the boxer you'll become. And Joshua didn't have a "poor" upbringing either. He grew up well fed, had a loving mother, and through his OWN misbehavior may have suffered a little bit (arrested). I see no evidence for your claim. I think the much bigger reason why you won't see Bel Air kids becoming boxers is because there is no culture of uber-masculinity in a neighbourhood like that. In poor/poverty-stricken neighbourhoods, there's a lot of angry insecure young men who wanna prove themselves. There's virtually no intellectual culture in these areas. Just a lot of very insecure, angry young men who wanna prove they're the baddest. That's far more of an influence than poverty.

 

[Tatra]

for every middle class world champion anyone can name, i reckon i could name 50 from poor families and backgrounds

Go ahead.

no, YOU said poverty, everyone else said poor

It changes nothing. As I said above: If a poor upbringing creates a better boxer, then by definition the poorer your upbringing, the better the boxer you'll become. And Joshua didn't have a "poor" upbringing either.

You're just clinging to semantics now.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

So I was right. They had to suffer a little (barely), nothing close to poverty. They had money for food, clothes & rent.

Which are only the basic essentials needed to survive. It sounds like they barely managed from month-to-month. His family couldn't even afford to buy him a uniform for football much less anything else. This indicates that they were lower class as I said. Financial reasons are why he took up boxing. Even then the only reason he was able to start boxing is because his father gave him hand-me-down shoes, shorts, and old worn boxing gloves that were falling apart.

 

[Tatra]

Which are only the basic essentials needed to survive. It sounds like they barely managed from month-to-month. His family couldn't even afford to buy him a uniform for football much less anything else. This indicates that they were lower class as I said. Financial reasons are why he took up boxing. Even then the only reason he was able to start boxing is because his father gave him hand-me-down shoes, shorts, and old worn boxing gloves that were falling apart.

I just don't see how this is relevant to whether a boxer succeeds. I think it clearly comes down to: culture/values and the natural toughness of the person. All these men are just naturally tough people, physically & mentally. Having to suffer a bit might give you that extra enthusiasm to succeed, but what about all the kids who come from the absolute gutter and don't do shit in boxing? That alone debunks the original claim: Tough times generate good fighters

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

I just don't see how this is relevant to whether a boxer succeeds. I think it clearly comes down to: culture/values and the natural toughness of the person. All these men are just naturally tough people, physically & mentally. Having to suffer a bit might give you that extra enthusiasm to succeed, but what about all the kids who come from the absolute gutter and don't do shit in boxing? That alone debunks the original claim: Tough times generate good fighters

It may give them an edge. They could end up being hungrier at least when they're coming up. Who knows. True middle & upper class prizefighters aren't nearly as common as those that came from abject poverty or the lower class. Many boxers initially viewed the sport as a way out of poverty. Quite a few have gone on record and said as much.

 

[Tatra]

It may give them an edge. They could end up being hungrier at least when they're coming up. Who knows. True middle & upper class prizefighters aren't nearly as common as those that came from abject poverty or the lower class. Many boxers initially viewed the sport as a way out of poverty. Quite a few have gone on record and said as much.

I never mentioned anything about upper class. And just became many boxers said they pursued boxing as a way out of poverty, that doesn't mean poverty made them better (original claim).

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

I never mentioned anything about upper class. And just became many boxers said they pursued boxing as a way out of poverty, that doesn't mean poverty made them better (original claim).

You didn't mention upper class but you did mention the middle class earlier. Poverty may or may not have increased their drive to succeed. It's impossible to quantify but in many cases it is why they started boxing. Prizefighting is generally seen as a last resort.

 

[defjaam]

but what about all the kids who come from the absolute gutter and don't do shit in boxing? That alone debunks the original claim: Tough times generate good fighters

I don't recall saying that every kid from a certain environment turns into a good fighter. You're ripping everything out of context.

 

[Tatra]

You didn't mention upper class but you did mention the middle class earlier.

I don't recall saying that every kid from a certain environment turns into a good fighter. You're ripping everything out of context.

You said Tough times generate good fighters. I have proven that to be totally false. The only "tough times" required to create good fighters is the torture fighters go through in the gym.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Plenty of fighters come from middle-class backgrounds.

^ LOL

 

[Tatra]

^ LOL

I'm laughing at you bringing up upper class when I mentioned nothing about it, then admitting I mentioned nothing about it but clinging to 'but you did mention middle class'. Er yeah dude, there's a world of difference between middle and upper class.

 

[defjaam]

You said Tough times generate good fighters. I have proven that to be totally false. The only "tough times" required to create good fighters is the torture fighters go through in the gym.

You're not a rich bitch by any chance? Maybe feel a little offended that people "socially lower" than you could accomplish more because of being socially lower.