International Is South Africa coming undone?

[Scerpi]

The murder rate seems to confirm those feelings. Place has the most murders of any city on the planet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_murder_rate

Necessity is the mother of invention....

 

[Yehudim]

I had plans to get out last year guess how well those went?

Now, I've got some things going on that are going to keep me from leaving even if I could at this point - I've been threatening to leave for years, but always find a reason not to.


The Western Cape keeps talking about secession - a majority of their voters think it should at least be voted on, even if they don't want to secede. If things don't change, I think that there's a chance, over time, that the Western Cape manages to leave the Republic or at least federalise and they've made a couple of moves in that direction - though, as well-run as they are, they have a history of water-dependence on the rest of the country and that might be a huge problem.
IF they manage to secede, they'll be taking the second-wealthiest and most well-run industry and infrastructure with them, and will probably brain-drain the rest of the country in short order. I don't think it would take long after that for South Africa to degrade into little more than a collection of independently and poorly run city states, with tracts of lawless land between them governed by crime bosses and warlords - it would probably all be absorbed into a larger pan-African territory at some point.

That's the more negative prediction. On the positive side, South Africa is ripe for an authentically African, South African nationalist (not black nationalist) to rise to the fore. The people are hungry for ownership and personal empowerment. They're mostly aware that the ANC is a corrupt house of thieves. And, contrary to popular belief, race is not close to the main issue in their minds. There are a couple of figures in both SA business and politics that very much have the potential to fill the right-of-centre shoes that South Africa needs someone to fill.


On the specific topic of this thread, I still expect Zuma to get some sort of reprieve. And, whether or not he does, I expect the violence to die down. The biggest takeaway of this story is really that the ANC may have shortened its own already short lifespan.

Predictions are tough, and if you asked me tomorrow, I'd have a different dozen.

It's worth noting that I think South Africa can be looked to as a marker for the direction a number of other, far more developed, countries are headed.

Does South Africa even have the capacity to properly govern itself though? I mean obviously the country has enough intelligent and competent people to run it but with the race politics, it seems inevitable that it will always swing back to ultra-polarized politics when inevitably minorities make up a big share of these politicians and technocrats.

Elections mean nothing if the people elected are incapable of governing. Haiti is probably the best example of this.

 

[Denter]

Does South Africa even have the capacity to properly govern itself though? I mean obviously the country has enough intelligent and competent people to run it but with the race politics, it seems inevitable that it will always swing back to ultra-polarized politics when inevitably minorities make up a big share of these politicians and technocrats.

Elections mean nothing if the people elected are incapable of governing. Haiti is probably the best example of this.

In stories about power outages and infrastructure failure, there always seems to be a throwaway that no maintenance has been done since 1994.

 

[Scerpi]

I worked with a colleague from South Africa, same thing. He was educated in the United States, went back to South Africa and just couldn’t believe it. He had a deep sadness and disbelief when discussing things there. Ending apartheid and Mandela was all so promising, and then everything falls apart. It’s amazing, if you just chant “racism” you can topple entire nations.

“When certain obstructionists become too irritating, label them after suitable buildups as fascist or Nazi or anti-semitic, and use the prestige of anti-fascist and tolerance organisations to discredit them. In the public mind, constantly associate those who oppose us with those names which already have a bad smell. The association will after enough repetition become fact in the public mind.”

It's about not understanding the vast difference between "Equality" and "Equity of Outcomes"

SA definitely desperately needed Equality... I was in High School in the 90's and did a report on South Africa and Nelson Mandela. It was extremely sad and disturbing to see the treatment of different races.

But when you chop off your nose (as a country) and handicap your country in the interest of "Equity"... Well, I think you can see the results in South Africa 30 years later.

We're really starting to see this in the US now... Holding certain people down to prop other people up... It never works.

The best a country can do is to do everything possible to make sure that every person gets "EQUAL" treatment and consideration... But striving for perfect "Equitable" outcomes is completely impossible and leads to disaster...

Whenever you hear a politician starting ranting about "Equity"... every warning hair on your neck should stand up on your head, because they're getting ready to propose evil policies (even if they have the best intentions).

 

[second sight]

I mentioned some stuff in another thread, I visited with a guy from South Africa the other day and ask him if it was as bad as I read....he said it much worse. The blacks have been given permission to take the farms from the whites and they do it brutally. He said he knew of a family where they raped the kids in front of the mom and dad, then poured boiling water down their throats to kill them. Raped the lady in front of her husband, hung her upside down and shoved a broken bottle in her vagina and killed her.

 

[second sight]

bunch of South Africa clips in here, looks like everywhere is going crazy

https://twitter.com/tzvi_meir_

 

[second sight]

These are all several years old but it shows what they were dealing with before the latest crisis going on there now. Why we are just sitting back and letting this happen is beyond me.

 

[second sight]

News ReportsWorld
Updated: 13 July, 2021
Indians face racist abuse online, threatened with rape and massacre as violence breaks out in South Africa

Indians are facing racist abuse and social media platforms are being used to incite violence against Indians living in South Africa.


13 July, 2021
OpIndia Staff

Image Credit: Rogan Ward/Reuters
1978
Troubling news has been coming from South Africa where violence has erupted following the arrest of former President Jacob Zuma on July 7. While looters and rioters are rampaging through the country, some of Indian origin and others who are White have come together to defend their properties through retaliation.

Consequently, Indians are facing racist abuse on social media platforms and the platforms are being used to further incite violence against Indians living in South Africa.

Source: Twitter

Source: Twitter

Source: Twitter
Indians are being accused of racism in order to justify racist attacks against them.

Source: Twitter
Indians who are defending themselves against rioters in the USA are being accused of inciting a civil war.

Source: Twitter
Some are even justifying raping Indian women because Indians are ‘evil’.

Source: Twitter
Threats of rape and massacre are also being issued.

Source: Twitter
Violence is being incited against the White population in South Africa as well.

Source: Twitter
Indians are being blamed pretty much for everything under the Sun, while some say that ‘giving the country away’ to Indians is worse than ‘living under Whites’ because Blacks do ‘better’ under Whites. One may recall, while Africans suffered slavery during colonial rule by Whites, Indians have never committed such atrocity against Africans.

Source: Twitter

Source: Twitter
Reportedly, the South African government has decided to deploy the military at some places to curb the violence. Shopping centres, pharmacies have been looted and the supply chain and Coronavirus vaccination drives were disrupted. In all, 6 people have been killed so far and a total of 489 suspects have been arrested.

In a statement, incumbent South African President Cyril Ramaphosa said, “What we are witnessing now are opportunistic acts of criminality, with groups of people instigating chaos merely as a cover for looting and theft. We will not hesitate to arrest and prosecute those who perpetrate these actions and will ensure that they face the full might of our law.”

 

[Strategery]

Spent a week in Cape town when i was younger. felt like the most dangerous places i have been to.

Cape Town is the safest city to visit in SA.

 

[JSN]

It came undone decades ago when apartheid was ended.

 

[Bagatur]

to think that SA used to have a space agency is just insane.

 

[second sight]

bad to worse

 

[second sight]

Dozens Dead Amid Chaotic Stampedes, Looting in South Africa
Lauren Giella 4 hrs ago
South Africa has risen to 32 as looting and violence continue in the Gauteng and KwaZulu-Natal provinces following the conviction of former President Jacob Zuma. Many deaths occurred amid chaotic stampedes as food, appliance, liquor and clothing stores were looted.

© LUCA SOLA/AFP via Getty Images South Africa National Defense Force (SANDF) soldiers and South African Police Service officers detain suspected looters at Jabulani Mall in Soweto on July 13, 2021. South Africa National Defense Force (SANDF) soldiers and South African Police Service officers detain suspected looters at Jabulani Mall in Soweto on July 13, 2021. Dozens of people have died as looting and stampedes continue following the conviction of former President Jacob Zuma.
"Yesterday's events brought a lot of sadness," KwaZulu-Natal Premier Sihle Zikalala said Tuesday. "The number of people who have died in KwaZulu-Natal alone stands at 26. Many of them died from being trampled on during a stampede while people were looting items."

Local police and 2,500 military soldiers have made a few arrests but are struggling to contain the violence.

For more reporting from the Associated Press, see below:

Looting continued Tuesday in Johannesburg shopping malls in township areas including the Jabulani Mall and the Dobsonville Mall in Soweto. There were also reports of continued looting in centers in KwaZulu-Natal.

The violence started in KwaZulu-Natal last week as protests against the imprisonment of Zuma, who began serving a 15-month sentence for contempt of court. He was convicted of defying a court order to testify before a state-backed inquiry probing allegations of corruption during his term as president from 2009 to 2018.




Riots Break Out In South Africa Following Former President Jacob Zuma’s Imprisonment

The sporadic pro-Zuma violence spiraled into a spree of criminal theft in poor, township areas of the two provinces, according to witnesses. So far, the lawlessness has not spread to South Africa's other nine provinces.

The Constitutional Court, the country's highest court, heard Zuma's application to have his sentence rescinded on Monday. Zuma's lawyer presented his arguments that the top court made errors when sentencing Zuma to prison. After 10 hours of testimony on Monday, the court judges said they would study the arguments and announce their decision at a later date.

© Yeshiel Panchia/AP Photo A woman walks past a fire truck as it extinguishes flames in a looted store in Alexandra township, Johannesburg, South Africa, Monday, July 12, 2021. Over 30 people are dead following looting and stampedes in provinces following the conviction of South Africa's former President Jacob Zuma. Yeshiel Panchia/AP Photo

 

[JP557CU]

It's really tragic. Like, I haven't left because this is my country. This is home.
When that ex of mine got off the plane from Canada, she said she could smell Africa in the air, and she was so happy to be home. I know there's a shithole joke in that "smell Africa" comment - but you know, it's the air of the land that birthed you. And she was also so happy to be back in a place where PC speech isn't actually socially monitored to the extent it is in Canada - she could generally speak her mind, and that's a precious thing. But then you start to see what's been done to the home you know and love, and it's just an ongoing punch in the gut.

And yes, that quote is spot-on. The West looks destined for its own tragedy.

Thank you for sharing so much about your country. I absolutely see the same thing happening here in the USA, and of course no one will do anything to stop it because they will just be called racist and any other ridiculous name. We will eventually just give in to Marxism or let BLM rule us, then we will fall apart to even more crime and violence while the left continues to deny their horrible failed policies. Our way of life is gone with the wind, and the jungle is closing in.

 

[JP557CU]

It's about not understanding the vast difference between "Equality" and "Equity of Outcomes"

SA definitely desperately needed Equality... I was in High School in the 90's and did a report on South Africa and Nelson Mandela. It was extremely sad and disturbing to see the treatment of different races.

But when you chop off your nose (as a country) and handicap your country in the interest of "Equity"... Well, I think you can see the results in South Africa 30 years later.

We're really starting to see this in the US now... Holding certain people down to prop other people up... It never works.

The best a country can do is to do everything possible to make sure that every person gets "EQUAL" treatment and consideration... But striving for perfect "Equitable" outcomes is completely impossible and leads to disaster...

Whenever you hear a politician starting ranting about "Equity"... every warning hair on your neck should stand up on your head, because they're getting ready to propose evil policies (even if they have the best intentions).

One of the most accurate things I’ve read on sherdog, and I couldn’t agree more. America is so far removed from being a meritocracy, now like you said, it’s all about dumbing everything down to prop up certain groups of people. Getting rid of standardized tests, lowering all criteria, mandatory hiring quotas and on and on. Really awful and destined for failure when you lower the standards. Republicans want everyone to be equal at the starting line, that’s equality, the left wants everyone equal at the finish line, and that is why we are doomed. Pretty soon your delta or united pilot will be the guy who failed flight school but hey, we have to pass him and give him a license in the name of equity. Not gonna end well!

 

[Bald1]

Whenever you hear a politician starting ranting about "Equity"... every warning hair on your neck should stand up on your head, because they're getting ready to propose evil policies (even if they have the best intentions).

They both sound nice though, right?

Except equality is about providing everyone with a level playing field to start from while equity is about giving the higher ground.

It just comes down to whether you're an individualist or collectivist. And sure, it's a worthwhile goal to focus on groups as a whole if they've been disadvantaged in the past, but remember that's not the historical measuring stick with which we selected who we give the higher ground to. Equity could work on an individual, case by case basis, but is absolutely a disaster if applied across populations wholesale.

 

[PrinceOfPain]

Does South Africa even have the capacity to properly govern itself though? I mean obviously the country has enough intelligent and competent people to run it but with the race politics, it seems inevitable that it will always swing back to ultra-polarized politics when inevitably minorities make up a big share of these politicians and technocrats.

Elections mean nothing if the people elected are incapable of governing. Haiti is probably the best example of this.

The country has the capacity and the potential. But it's anyone's guess exactly how we're going to emerge from the ANC's crisis, how long it takes us, and how many of the remaining skills flee or expire.
And, in a somewhat oversimplified fashion, that's what I think it all boils down to.

We're the most nationalist country on the continent, but we're really struggling to figure out what our national identity is. The shit that's going on now with the ANC, and how we handle it, will play a massive part in defining who we are.

 

[PrinceOfPain]

to think that SA used to have a space agency is just insane.

And nuclear weapons <45><45>

A lot of people said it was racist to get rid of them... but everyone would be pretty nervous right now if we still had them

 

[Err]

The country has the capacity and the potential. But it's anyone's guess exactly how we're going to emerge from the ANC's crisis, how long it takes us, and how many of the remaining skills flee or expire.
And, in a somewhat oversimplified fashion, that's what I think it all boils down to.

We're the most nationalist country on the continent, but we're really struggling to figure out what our national identity is. The shit that's going on now with the ANC, and how we handle it, will play a massive part in defining who we are.

As a white South African are you eligible for some kind of expedited immigration or relocation due to the prevalence of racial violence?

 

[Joe_Armstrong]

I saw a gif of police over there, loading looted coolers in their police van.