International Is South Africa coming undone?

It’s been all going to shits more or less ever since the regime change was pressured to be done ASAP by the international community.
You can’t expect anything else when a bunch of populist revolutionaries get control of resources and positions of power..
I agree with this somewhat. The ANC never really changed from opposition to a ruling party. Which kept growth down and made a mess of the system there. A more gradual change would have been better.
 
Spent a week in Cape town when i was younger. felt like the most dangerous places i have been to.
 
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...er-zuma-jailed-and-looting-spreads/ar-AAM3hON

South African military deployed as ex-leader Zuma jailed and looting spreads

Ramaphosa addressed the nation Monday evening, calling for calm after at least six people died in the violence and hundreds were arrested.

After the the former president was jailed, it seems things are exploding in SA. SA has always had corruption and other problems, that seem to be getting worse under Covid lock downs


https://www.theguardian.com/world/v...ed-to-tackle-violence-over-zuma-jailing-video Can't embed this video. The Army is out in force to suppress the rioting. I have heard that there are police rioting and looting as well.

What do you think? I don't follow SA that much, but what usually comes up is its fall from the BRICS grace and its economic stagnation and political corruption.

.

There's a political civil war going on in SA. The ANC is fractured between the Jacob Zuma and Cyril Ramaphosa camps. And the ANC itself has never been less popular, so they're swinging hard at each other as the two camps desperately try to scrabble for power that no one really believes they should have.
We're at one of the most dangerous points in our history, as it looks increasingly impossible for the ANC to win more than maybe one more general election. We're the most protest-heavy country in the world, and the vast majority of protesters for the past decade have been people protesting a lack of service delivery and who've given up on even bothering to vote, but who take to the streets to vent their frustrations by assaulting ANC party representatives.
The ANC can see the strong possibility of it's own end on the horizon, and that makes them very, very dangerous.

Zuma was head of intelligence for uMkhonto we Sizwe during the struggle, so he has a lot of dirt on a lot of people in a lot of high places. He is also very popular with large portions of the Zulu population (he's every inch the populist that Africa has a reputation for) - that Zulu loyalty is why most of the violence has happened in Kwa-Zulu Natal.
He's what you could consider the head of the ANC's leftists; communist sympathies, pro-land expropriation, etc.

Ramaphosa represents the pro-corporate heart of the ANC - he's corrupt as fuck, but he's also not an ideologue and he has a reputation as a practical businessman, and so he rose to power within the ANC after Zuma's scandal-filled presidency did a decent job of tarnishing the ANC's reputation even among supporters (a few examples: Zuma raped the AIDs-infected daughter of a dead friend and claimed that it was fine because he had a shower afterwards; he appropriated state funds to improve the facilities at his person home at Nkandla ranch; he was responsible for a state capture scandal, in which a rich Indian crime family purchased access to our national funds and resources; and the country declined massively from 2009 onwards, despite our largely being unaffected by the GFC). He was seen by some ANC supporters (the sort who have come to revile Nelson Mandela as a sellout in the pocket of the Western elite) as an ANC concession made to corporate South Africa.

It's not really a surprise that the army's been involved in the recent riots, etc. Cyril Ramaphosa's never been shy about bringing force to bear. The Marikana Massacre happened because he directed armed police forces against unarmed striking miners. A couple years ago, he pushed the army into Cape Town in an attempt to get the crime under control (that was a bit of a laughable failure), and last year he was quick to put the army on the streets to enforce the lockdowns (leading to a handful of deaths).
These things are extra concerning, when one considers the new gun-control bill under consideration. We already have very strict gun laws, and no one in their right minds thinks they protect the innocent.

And yes, speaking of Covid, corruption didn't get worse, South Africans just dared to hope that just this once, they wouldn't be screwed by the people in power. Cyril really seemed to step up at the beginning - he had a well-laid plan, processes in place that accommodated our shortcomings, and consideration toward the group that we all knew would be incredibly vulnerable - the poor. Arrangements were being made as early as January, and things actually looked positive for once.
That all fell apart quickly enough.

92647533_208234990470627_1193443123995023279_n-1411370656.jpg


1y8ikvgottd51.jpg


To be honest though, the current headline violence isn't worse than usual fare. There's just an angle that makes it attractive to the Western media.

That said, make no mistake, the country's circling the drain fast - and it's been getting fast since about 2017. Looking at the voting rolls and the general sentiment in the country, the ANC barely has a mandate to lead as of right now; and they know it. The only reason they hold power still, is that the opposition party's been successfully painted as the inheritors of apartheid in the eyes of a significant portion of our very uneducated population (much like the American democrats do the the Republicans). But those people are not necessarily voting for the ANC, they're simply not voting at all, because they do not see their interests represented by anyone.

The current violence is, in actuality, probably the best outcome Zuma's trial (which feels like it's been going on forever) could have had.
The fact that Zuma was even arrested is fucking insane, to be honest. He's guilty as sin, but none of us expected him to actually be punished for it. Hell, a few months ago, there was a stand-off between the police and his own personal cadre of MK veterans, trying to prevent him from having to face any sort of justice.
 
There's a political civil war going on in SA. The ANC is fractured between the Jacob Zuma and Cyril Ramaphosa camps. And the ANC itself has never been less popular, so they're swinging hard at each other as the two camps desperately try to scrabble for power that no one really believes they should have.
We're at one of the most dangerous points in our history, as it looks increasingly impossible for the ANC to win more than maybe one more general election. We're the most protest-heavy country in the world, and the vast majority of protesters for the past decade have been people protesting a lack of service delivery and who've given up on even bothering to vote, but who take to the streets to vent their frustrations by assaulting ANC party representatives.
The ANC can see the strong possibility of it's own end on the horizon, and that makes them very, very dangerous.

Zuma was head of intelligence for uMkhonto we Sizwe during the struggle, so he has a lot of dirt on a lot of people in a lot of high places. He is also very popular with large portions of the Zulu population (he's every inch the populist that Africa has a reputation for) - that Zulu loyalty is why most of the violence has happened in Kwa-Zulu Natal.
He's what you could consider the head of the ANC's leftists; communist sympathies, pro-land expropriation, etc.

Ramaphosa represents the pro-corporate heart of the ANC - he's corrupt as fuck, but he's also not an ideologue and he has a reputation as a practical businessman, and so he rose to power within the ANC after Zuma's scandal-filled presidency did a decent job of tarnishing the ANC's reputation even among supporters (a few examples: Zuma raped the AIDs-infected daughter of a dead friend and claimed that it was fine because he had a shower afterwards; he appropriated state funds to improve the facilities at his person home at Nkandla ranch; he was responsible for a state capture scandal, in which a rich Indian crime family purchased access to our national funds and resources; and the country declined massively from 2009 onwards, despite our largely being unaffected by the GFC). He was seen by some ANC supporters (the sort who have come to revile Nelson Mandela as a sellout in the pocket of the Western elite) as an ANC concession made to corporate South Africa.

It's not really a surprise that the army's been involved in the recent riots, etc. Cyril Ramaphosa's never been shy about bringing force to bear. The Marikana Massacre happened because he directed armed police forces against unarmed striking miners. A couple years ago, he pushed the army into Cape Town in an attempt to get the crime under control (that was a bit of a laughable failure), and last year he was quick to put the army on the streets to enforce the lockdowns (leading to a handful of deaths).
These things are extra concerning, when one considers the new gun-control bill under consideration. We already have very strict gun laws, and no one in their right minds thinks they protect the innocent.

And yes, speaking of Covid, corruption didn't get worse, South Africans just dared to hope that just this once, they wouldn't be screwed by the people in power. Cyril really seemed to step up at the beginning - he had a well-laid plan, processes in place that accommodated our shortcomings, and consideration toward the group that we all knew would be incredibly vulnerable - the poor. Arrangements were being made as early as January, and things actually looked positive for once.
That all fell apart quickly enough.

92647533_208234990470627_1193443123995023279_n-1411370656.jpg


1y8ikvgottd51.jpg


To be honest though, the current headline violence isn't worse than usual fare. There's just an angle that makes it attractive to the Western media.

That said, make no mistake, the country's circling the drain fast - and it's been getting fast since about 2017. Looking at the voting rolls and the general sentiment in the country, the ANC barely has a mandate to lead as of right now; and they know it. The only reason they hold power still, is that the opposition party's been successfully painted as the inheritors of apartheid in the eyes of a significant portion of our very uneducated population (much like the American democrats do the the Republicans). But those people are not necessarily voting for the ANC, they're simply not voting at all, because they do not see their interests represented by anyone.

The current violence is, in actuality, probably the best outcome Zuma's trial (which feels like it's been going on forever) could have had.
The fact that Zuma was even arrested is fucking insane, to be honest. He's guilty as sin, but none of us expected him to actually be punished for it. Hell, a few months ago, there was a stand-off between the police and his own personal cadre of MK veterans, trying to prevent him from having to face any sort of justice.
Great to get an inside take- thanks. Whats your prediction for the future? Are you still there- any plans to get out?Come to Oz.
 
Great to get an inside take- thanks. Whats your prediction for the future? Are you still there- any plans to get out?Come to Oz.

I had plans to get out last year :D guess how well those went?

Now, I've got some things going on that are going to keep me from leaving even if I could at this point - I've been threatening to leave for years, but always find a reason not to.


The Western Cape keeps talking about secession - a majority of their voters think it should at least be voted on, even if they don't want to secede. If things don't change, I think that there's a chance, over time, that the Western Cape manages to leave the Republic or at least federalise and they've made a couple of moves in that direction - though, as well-run as they are, they have a history of water-dependence on the rest of the country and that might be a huge problem.
IF they manage to secede, they'll be taking the second-wealthiest and most well-run industry and infrastructure with them, and will probably brain-drain the rest of the country in short order. I don't think it would take long after that for South Africa to degrade into little more than a collection of independently and poorly run city states, with tracts of lawless land between them governed by crime bosses and warlords - it would probably all be absorbed into a larger pan-African territory at some point.

That's the more negative prediction. On the positive side, South Africa is ripe for an authentically African, South African nationalist (not black nationalist) to rise to the fore. The people are hungry for ownership and personal empowerment. They're mostly aware that the ANC is a corrupt house of thieves. And, contrary to popular belief, race is not close to the main issue in their minds. There are a couple of figures in both SA business and politics that very much have the potential to fill the right-of-centre shoes that South Africa needs someone to fill.


On the specific topic of this thread, I still expect Zuma to get some sort of reprieve. And, whether or not he does, I expect the violence to die down. The biggest takeaway of this story is really that the ANC may have shortened its own already short lifespan.

Predictions are tough, and if you asked me tomorrow, I'd have a different dozen.

It's worth noting that I think South Africa can be looked to as a marker for the direction a number of other, far more developed, countries are headed.
 
It’s been all going to shits more or less ever since the regime change was pressured to be done ASAP by the international community.
You can’t expect anything else when a bunch of populist revolutionaries get control of resources and positions of power..
Ding ding ding ding! We have a winner. Exactly right, caving into international pressures and then wondering why the new regime can’t farm, has no plan, violence and crime spike and then 30 years you keep blaming the other guys. This will be like good old USA when they let blm rule over the country, 20 years later people will say “what happened to America, why is it so bad now”
 
@PrinceOfPain tbs I you for that wonderful write up and breakdown of what is going on and why. I need a bit of time to digest all that before making a real reply
A quick note in 2017 I met a bunch of South Africans that came to Japan. One are thinking about returning. Most English teachers here go back, like 95% to back in 3-5 years. Something like that. They are white, half white half black, Chinese and another white. They didn’t say too much just that it was dangerous and they didn’t see a future there
 
I had plans to get out last year :D guess how well those went?

Now, I've got some things going on that are going to keep me from leaving even if I could at this point - I've been threatening to leave for years, but always find a reason not to.


The Western Cape keeps talking about secession - a majority of their voters think it should at least be voted on, even if they don't want to secede. If things don't change, I think that there's a chance, over time, that the Western Cape manages to leave the Republic or at least federalise and they've made a couple of moves in that direction - though, as well-run as they are, they have a history of water-dependence on the rest of the country and that might be a huge problem.
IF they manage to secede, they'll be taking the second-wealthiest and most well-run industry and infrastructure with them, and will probably brain-drain the rest of the country in short order. I don't think it would take long after that for South Africa to degrade into little more than a collection of independently and poorly run city states, with tracts of lawless land between them governed by crime bosses and warlords - it would probably all be absorbed into a larger pan-African territory at some point.

That's the more negative prediction. On the positive side, South Africa is ripe for an authentically African, South African nationalist (not black nationalist) to rise to the fore. The people are hungry for ownership and personal empowerment. They're mostly aware that the ANC is a corrupt house of thieves. And, contrary to popular belief, race is not close to the main issue in their minds. There are a couple of figures in both SA business and politics that very much have the potential to fill the right-of-centre shoes that South Africa needs someone to fill.


On the specific topic of this thread, I still expect Zuma to get some sort of reprieve. And, whether or not he does, I expect the violence to die down. The biggest takeaway of this story is really that the ANC may have shortened its own already short lifespan.

Predictions are tough, and if you asked me tomorrow, I'd have a different dozen.

It's worth noting that I think South Africa can be looked to as a marker for the direction a number of other, far more developed, countries are headed.
Like which more developed countries? can you expand?
 
@PrinceOfPain tbs I you for that wonderful write up and breakdown of what is going on and why. I need a bit of time to digest all that before making a real reply
A quick note in 2017 I met a bunch of South Africans that came to Japan. One are thinking about returning. Most English teachers here go back, like 95% to back in 3-5 years. Something like that. They are white, half white half black, Chinese and another white. They didn’t say too much just that it was dangerous and they didn’t see a future there

South Africans that come back can sometimes find themselves trapped here by the economy if they don't have a plan.
i dated a girl for a while who'd studied for her PhD in Canada. She couldn't wait to get out of Canada (she thoroughly disliked the country and the people, lol) and come back to South Africa. But the country had changed so much in the 8 years she was gone, that it absolutely stunned her. And once she was here, she struggled to find work that could get her back out.

Another friend of mine lives in Oz, and she recently brought her sister over to her after the poor girl was kidnapped and tortured in a home invasion. She was lucky they didn't sexually assault her, but still...

The biggest reason to leave is genuinely the emptiness of the potential future the country holds for some people. The crime and danger matter but, especially if someone wants kids that have a future, this is not the country for most.
 
South Africans that come back can sometimes find themselves trapped here by the economy if they don't have a plan.
i dated a girl for a while who'd studied for her PhD in Canada. She couldn't wait to get out of Canada (she thoroughly disliked the country and the people, lol) and come back to South Africa. But the country had changed so much in the 8 years she was gone, that it absolutely stunned her. And once she was here, she struggled to find work that could get her back out.

Another friend of mine lives in Oz, and she recently brought her sister over to her after the poor girl was kidnapped and tortured in a home invasion. She was lucky they didn't sexually assault her, but still...

The biggest reason to leave is genuinely the emptiness of the potential future the country holds for some people. The crime and danger matter but, especially if someone wants kids that have a future, this is not the country for most.
I worked with a colleague from South Africa, same thing. He was educated in the United States, went back to South Africa and just couldn’t believe it. He had a deep sadness and disbelief when discussing things there. Ending apartheid and Mandela was all so promising, and then everything falls apart. It’s amazing, if you just chant “racism” you can topple entire nations.

“When certain obstructionists become too irritating, label them after suitable buildups as fascist or Nazi or anti-semitic, and use the prestige of anti-fascist and tolerance organisations to discredit them. In the public mind, constantly associate those who oppose us with those names which already have a bad smell. The association will after enough repetition become fact in the public mind.”
 
Like which more developed countries? can you expand?
Scares me to living death, it’s obviously my country. The Marxist will scream racist so loud, and for so long that they will get our country. Once they take over we will be destroyed. Like Kruschev predicted, we will lose without firing a single bullet.
 
Is South Africa

Is Normal

Howzit, SA has been raped by wh*te supremacists for centuries, and now a couple of poor desperate starving hungry people are taking a few pieces of bread from SPAR and it's the end of the world. Dr Malema will calm things down and the wh*te supremacists and their Indian race soldiers will go back to their cozy suburbs while the Black folx continue to suffer under the boot of colonialism.

so it’s actually white people’s fault?
 
I agree with this somewhat. The ANC never really changed from opposition to a ruling party. Which kept growth down and made a mess of the system there. A more gradual change would have been better.
Yeah, I hired someone from SA a few years back and I’ve been quite curious about their history ever since she told me some stories.
The ANC has been the de facto ruler ever since the end of the apartheid and certainly they weren’t up to the task, not then not now.. Granted, they’re not the worst in SA politics but they’ve definitely enjoyed their privileges for a long time, while being being ineffective.
Oh well..
 
Like which more developed countries? can you expand?

In the states, I think that the recent intensified use of race and identity politics to attempt to bludgeon people into acquiescence is very, very worrying (not least because they are re-importing their current leftist madness to countries like mine). Looking at the spread of "woke" insanity through their schools, military and private industry feels very familiar. A great many good teachers were flushed from the SA schooling system with the change of regime, and the country still hasn't recovered from the loss. America is in the position of damaging its ability to educate its people, as well as exploiting racial insecurity to deflect attention from bad policy and poor appointments.
Doing that is exactly why my country struggles to keep the lights on. There also appears, in America as there is in South Africa, to be too much familiarity between big business and big government.

On that front, the UK is very similar - if not even worse. A South African professor recently got into all sorts of trouble with the London School for African and Oriental Studies, because he used the "N-word" in the context of a lecture describing racial slurs. We're talking about an ethnically Indian man who literally lived through apartheid, being whined at by a pack of entitled British brats, because he apparently wasn't woke enough for them.

The immigration crisis in Europe also gave me concerns (though, I think that outside of France and the UK it's not looking too bad now?). Importing a third world underclass, when you have little appreciation for the world they come from, or the intention/capacity to assimilate them into your world looked like a quick-and-easy way to replicate the discontent of extreme inequality and sharply disparate cultures that we see here.

Yesterday's guilt looks like it's being used to bully Westerners into sacrificing tomorrow.

ETA: I know it sounds far-fetched. But last year there was a poster from Portland who implied that nothing was wrong in Portland, because he could go outside and not see burned down buildings and mobs of madmen in the streets. I live in one of the most dangerous cities in the world, and I can still go down the road to the park right now, and watch the families chilling by the river, walking their dogs and playing with their kids.
Doesn't mean the country's not falling apart. It just means the facade's not fully slipped quite yet.
 
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I worked with a colleague from South Africa, same thing. He was educated in the United States, went back to South Africa and just couldn’t believe it. He had a deep sadness and disbelief when discussing things there. Ending apartheid and Mandela was all so promising, and then everything falls apart. It’s amazing, if you just chant “racism” you can topple entire nations.

“When certain obstructionists become too irritating, label them after suitable buildups as fascist or Nazi or anti-semitic, and use the prestige of anti-fascist and tolerance organisations to discredit them. In the public mind, constantly associate those who oppose us with those names which already have a bad smell. The association will after enough repetition become fact in the public mind.”

It's really tragic. Like, I haven't left because this is my country. This is home.
When that ex of mine got off the plane from Canada, she said she could smell Africa in the air, and she was so happy to be home. I know there's a shithole joke in that "smell Africa" comment - but you know, it's the air of the land that birthed you. And she was also so happy to be back in a place where PC speech isn't actually socially monitored to the extent it is in Canada - she could generally speak her mind, and that's a precious thing. But then you start to see what's been done to the home you know and love, and it's just an ongoing punch in the gut.

And yes, that quote is spot-on. The West looks destined for its own tragedy.
 

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