Is psychopathy an advantage in fighting?

[tenniswhiz]

This.
I still don't get the collective amount of energy that people waste on this forum hating JJ.

I don't know if I could hate someone so bad if this person never did anything to me or loved ones.

Well, the world will never change due to bystanders and enablers like you.

 

[silvasurfer5253]

I can’t see a downside

 

[jeremyemilio]

A psychopath is described as someone who completely lacks a conscience. They are "cold-blooded and calculating", "skilled actors whose sole mission is to manipulate people for personal gain." (webmd)

Suppose you are a psychopath and you know that you will not be penalized the first few times you poke someone in the eyes or knee them in the groin. Then you would poke them in the eyes or knee them in the groin as soon as doing so would give you more of an advantage than any other action available to you. A normal person would probably choose not to use these moves even if doing so would gain them a huge advantage, and may adjust their actions sub-optimally out of guilt if they did accidentally use them. But a psychopath would take full advantage of the moves and feel no guilt afterwards.

Suppose you are a psychopath and you know you can get away with taking PEDs. Then you would take them even if you think you are already the best in the world, simply because they will increase your advantage. A normal person might only take PEDs if they lacked real confidence and be mentally impaired in the fight by both that lack of confidence and guilt. But a psychopath could be completely confident, enjoy all the benefits of the PEDs, and feel no guilt whatsoever.

Last of all, suppose you do all of the above and you become widely regarded as scum of a human being by your peers and the public. A normal person might feel the weight of this derision in their training and the fight, and perform at less than their best as a result. But a psychopath would not only not be affected by the derision, but they could actually use it by making their opponents hate them so much that they could not compete against them with a level head. As anyone who has competed knows, there are many pitfalls to hating your opponent. You can spend all your energy hating them rather than thinking how to beat them. You might fight them out of anger rather than using strategy.

If one had to compete against a true psychopath, what is the optimal mental strategy for doing so?

And just out of curiosity, which kinds careers, competitions, etc. do you think favor psychopaths and which do not?

First, you have at least one thing confused about psychopathy. A psychopath lacks empathy (feelings for others) but not emotions (their own feelings). Psychopaths don't enjoy derision anymore than anyone else. Perhaps less in that they often work so hard to "pass" that they get frustrated, angry, and insulted when they feel their cover is being blown (much like compulsive liars do when not believed).

Secondly, being a fighter is not an individual pursuit. It generally requires professional/vocational support (a team of coaches, training partners, etc) and personal support (family, friends, etc). That sort of thing is difficult to achieve and maintain for a psychopath.

It has been very well documented that psychopaths thrive in careers that reward ladder climbing, lone wolf type of behaviour over collaborative, team building behavior.

 

[Dorkman]

It would absolutely be an advantage.

People are misinformed about psychopaths. They associate that label with killers and murderers. It's not so. There are plenty of psychopaths that lead normal and successful lives.

In fact most people that are successful in high-level business are clinical psychopaths. They feel no remorse for fucking people over and ruining others lives on their way to the top.

Yep, being of that mind set would definitely make you less hesitant in physically destroying someone. Among other things in his career/life.

 

[Paynebringer]

Are you censoring yourself to avoid the parental filter your mom installed as a condition for paying for your Sherdog membership?

Fak off goof, you f*king noobs trying to act all grown up don't know sh!t about Sherdog. Stick to your Jon Jones hate themes and stay in your lane lane noob.

 

[jeremyemilio]

Uriah Hall is a great example. He's an absolute killer in the cage but you can tell he feels bad about it when he wins. He's a classic empath.

Yeah. This is a thing. I'm far too empathetic for my own good. I used to wrestle, and even as a wrestler I would feel bad for my opponent when I had beaten him (and sometimes even feel good for an opponent who had beaten me, believe it or not).

It's possible to shut that off in typical competition (the only times I can think of it hurting me in a match was two specific matches against teammates), but I can't imagine being a fighter. No way I would go in for the kill the way I need to against a guy who was clearly hurt.

That shit gets you into trouble socially, too, unfortunately. People tend to think you're a pussy and walk all over you. I ended up cutting off an awful lot of friends from my teen years because of their betrayals (which were pretty extreme)... and even then, I did so without saying a word to or against them to even let them know I was aware of the things they'd done to me, because I didn't want to hurt their feelings.

Anyway, all of which is to say that I don't agree with TS about psychopathy as being an ideal for fighters... but you sure as hell don't want to be whatever it is I am, either.

 

[jeremyemilio]

Yes, clearly: Jones uses PEDs, and has said on record he uses eye pokes on purpose, because "they're effective", and justifies it with "they're trying to give me brain damage".. so at best he's a sociopath who thinks he's more important than everyone else and should get to bend the rules in order to avoid the accepted risk of cage-fighting. Everyone is going to get brain damage but he thinks he's special and should be allowed to cheat to minimize it. In this case he's allowed to get away with cheating on multiple levels by UFC, and does it guilt-free thanks to sociopathy, so clearly it helps someone as a fighter.

The problem with Jones as an example is that even if he is a psychopath (which he may well be), on balance I think it's pretty easy to argue that his career has been harmed more than helped by his psychopathy. And, in fact, if he wasn't as physically gifted as he is (which has nothing to do with psychopathy), he'd probably have been left twisting in the wind by now by anyone associated with him.

... which is the real downside of psychopathy in general. It's great as you're climbing the ladder, but it sucks when you fall off and find out that, surprise surprise, no one you've stepped over on the way up is there waiting to catch you when you fall.

 

[jeremyemilio]

it's like with anything.... do what ever is possible to get the desired result. If you can completely block out or don't have emotion... it makes you react properly instead of letting your emotions get in the way. Being a fighter, your goal is to win.... it's a lot more beneficial to do that without your emotions getting in the way, winning by any means necessary. The same applies with any goal.

No it doesn't.

We've evolved emotions for a reason. The idea that emotions are a weakness is pure nonsense. They are an evolutionary adaptation that has served us exceptionally well as individuals and as a species. Although there are some niches where they thrive, people with difficulty feeling or expressing emotion tend to have difficulty in life in general, and the ones who don't are generally successful because they are able to mimic healthy emotional regulation and interaction.

 

[GBcrazy]

Jones definitely strikes me as having classic psychopathic behavior.

lol no...guy has show to be pretty emotional. No psychopath would waste time engaging for real in twitter beefs with random people

 

[jeremyemilio]

I always argue with family members about this. I tell them the only way to get really rich is fuck people over and run them down on the way to the top.

I feel it's not pretty but it's true.
Case and point no one in my family is extremely wealthy. Upper middle class at best.

Nah... it is also quite possible to get rich by being exceptionally talented (artist or athlete), exceptionally intelligent (IT, law, or finance), exceptionally hard working (entrepreneur), exceptionally lucky (lottery winner), or coming up with an exceptionally good idea (software developer or inventor).

There are aspects of all of these paths that become easier if you are "psychopathic" and willing to fuck people over... but there are benefits to being emotionally and socially well adjusted as well, such as being far more likely to have a communal support system to help carry you through the most difficult setbacks and challenges as you make your way forward.

 

[Fox2twenty]

it's the key to Jon Jones success

TurinaBones even attracts other sociopaths, colloquially known as the Bone-heads

 

[elwani]

First, you have at least one thing confused about psychopathy. A psychopath lacks empathy (feelings for others) but not emotions (their own feelings). Psychopaths don't enjoy derision anymore than anyone else. Perhaps less in that they often work so hard to "pass" that they get frustrated, angry, and insulted when they feel their cover is being blown (much like compulsive liars do when not believed).

Hmm, have a source for this? The following excerpt from Psychology Today, for example, seems to describe a psychopath as exactly someone who feels no shame or guilt in response to the disapproval of others:

Psychopaths, and to a degree, sociopaths, show a lack of emotion, especially the social emotions, such as shame, guilt, and embarrassment. Cleckley said that the psychopaths he came into contact with showed a “general poverty in major affective reactions” and a “lack of remorse or shame.” The PCL describes psychopaths as “emotionally shallow” and showing a lack of guilt.​

But I am not claiming to be an expert on psychology and am always willing to be corrected by a more informative or reputable source.

Secondly, being a fighter is not an individual pursuit. It generally requires professional/vocational support (a team of coaches, training partners, etc) and personal support (family, friends, etc). That sort of thing is difficult to achieve and maintain for a psychopath.

It has been very well documented that psychopaths thrive in careers that reward ladder climbing, lone wolf type of behaviour over collaborative, team building behavior.

But what can be a more lone wolf type of pursuit than fighting? At the end of the day, the fighter is the only one in the ring or cage. A fighter doesn't need teammates so much as he or she needs sparring partners to fight. You might argue the fighter can benefit from the moral support of family or "teammates", but a true psychopath would have no need for such support. Last of all, although it would be difficult to either prove or disprove the following, I suspect that the best trainers in fighting are probably those who have learned to work around terrible character flaws in their fighters. Otherwise who would have trained a young Tyson, Foreman, or Liston?

 

[elwani]

Reading more of the Psychology Today description of psychopathy, I also find the following excerpt interesting:

Insincere speech

Ranging from what the PCL describes as “glibness” and “superficial charm,” to Cleckley’s “untruthfulness” and “insincerity,” to outright “pathological lying,” there is a trend toward devaluing speech among psychopaths by inflating and distorting it toward selfish ends. The criteria for APD include “conning others for personal profit or pleasure.” One concerned father of a young sociopathic woman said, “I can't understand the girl, no matter how hard I try. It's not that she seems bad or exactly that she means to do wrong. She can lie with the straightest face, and after she's found in the most outlandish lies she still seems perfectly easy in her own mind” (Cleckley, 1941, p. 47).
​

And also this:

Irresponsibility

According to Cleckley psychopaths show unreliability, while the PCL mentions “irresponsibility,” and the PPI describes psychopaths as showing “blame externalization” (i.e., they blame others for events that are actually their fault). They may admit blame when forced into a corner, but these admissions are not accompanied by a sense of shame or remorse, and they have no power to change the sociopath’s future behavior.​

 

[marksmen]

Ferguson isn't a dirty fighter and is clean, but that man has no regard for his own body or his opponent. He wants to inflict as much damage on his opponents as possible. Jones is a psychopath. Basically what I took from OP.

 

[Captain Herb]

A third case is if the expectations in the environment are so low that no empathic collaboration is possible, so empathy confers no advantages. Think prison, or maybe a really terrible work place.

Trump Organization

 

[jeremyemilio]

Hmm, have a source for this? The following excerpt from Psychology Today, for example, seems to describe psychopaths as exactly someone who feels no shame or guilt in response to the disapproval of others:

Psychopaths, and to a degree, sociopaths, show a lack of emotion, especially the social emotions, such as shame, guilt, and embarrassment. Cleckley said that the psychopaths he came into contact with showed a “general poverty in major affective reactions” and a “lack of remorse or shame.” The PCL describes psychopaths as “emotionally shallow” and showing a lack of guilt.​

But I am not claiming to be an expert on psychology and am always willing to be corrected by a more informative or reputable source.



But what can be a more lone wolf type of pursuit than fighting? At the end of the day, the fighter is the only one in the ring or cage. A fighter doesn't need teammates so much as he or she needs sparring partners to fight. You might argue the fighter can benefit from the moral support of family or "teammates", but a true psychopath would have no need for such support. Last of all, although it would be difficult to either prove or disprove the following, I suspect that the best trainers in fighting are probably those who have learned to work around terrible character flaws in their fighters. Otherwise who would have trained a young Tyson, Foreman, or Liston?

Derision isn't the same as shame. All I'm saying is that psychopaths generally like to pass as "normal" and it generally affects them emotionally (makes them angry/frustrated) when they feel they aren't passing.

Using Jones as an example (just because he's the elephant in the room), we don't know that he's a psychopath... but we shouldn't be naive enough to think that because he gets upset and tells reporters to "sit down and shut up" when they call him on his "shameful" behaviour that somehow proves that he isn't a psychopath (because we think a psychopath wouldn't care what people thought of him).

As for trainers working with difficult people, I feel like that proves my point more than disproving it. Tyson has a shitload of flaws, but he's pretty clearly not a psychopath. He's a guy who's always made really strong personal connections with people who he cares about and who care about him. And this is why certain people have tended to stick with him (or at least try to) through all of his flawed personality traits and destructive behaviours. (I feel like had Tyson been a psychopath his relationship with Cus would have never gotten off the ground and he'd have been more likely to have ended up a gang member than a world champ.)

I'm certainly not a professional as far as all this goes, by the way, but I am a high school teacher who deals with the most troubled kids in my school (which has the most at risk students in the province) and I do have a lot of professional development training from that angle.

 

[Oddmonster]

It would absolutely be an advantage.

People are misinformed about psychopaths. They associate that label with killers and murderers. It's not so. There are plenty of psychopaths that lead normal and successful lives.

In fact most people that are successful in high-level business are clinical psychopaths. They feel no remorse for fucking people over and ruining others lives on their way to the top.

I stand corrected.

 

[elwani]

Derision isn't the same as shame. All I'm saying is that psychopaths generally like to pass as "normal" and it generally affects them emotionally (makes them angry/frustrated) when they feel they aren't passing.

Using Jones as an example (just because he's the elephant in the room), we don't know that he's a psychopath... but we shouldn't be naive enough to think that because he gets upset and tells reporters to "sit down and shut up" when they call him on his "shameful" behaviour that somehow proves that he isn't a psychopath (because we think a psychopath wouldn't care what people thought of him).

I think this has to do with the last point in the original post, which proposes that a psychopath may have an advantage because they would be less affected by public derision if they were discovered to have, for example, taken PEDs. Suppose a normal fighter is discovered to have taken PEDs, then they might experience all three of the following emotions: frustration to have failed in hiding it, shame to have been discovered, and guilt for having taken PEDs. But a psychopath would only experience one of the three: frustration to have failed in hiding it. So already, there is less psychological burden on the psychopath. But even if we were only to focus on frustration, a normal person might just wallow in the public derision out of shame, whereas a psychopath would immediately think of ways to address the frustration, perhaps by obfuscating the truth or downright lying (if they thought they could get away with it), or failing that, by calculated aggression and bullying. So even in the limited case of frustration, a normal person might simply endure it whereas a psychopath would immediately begin to alleviate it, thus experiencing less psychological burden.

As for trainers working with difficult people, I feel like that proves my point more than disproving it. Tyson has a shitload of flaws, but he's pretty clearly not a psychopath. He's a guy who's always made really strong personal connections with people who he cares about and who care about him. And this is why certain people have tended to stick with him (or at least try to) through all of his flawed personality traits and destructive behaviours. (I feel like had Tyson been a psychopath his relationship with Cus would have never gotten off the ground and he'd have been more likely to have ended up a gang member than a world champ.)

I'm certainly not a professional as far as all this goes, by the way, but I am a high school teacher who deals with the most troubled kids in my school (which has the most at risk students in the province) and I do have a lot of professional development training from that angle.

Well you know while Cus was originally training Tyson, Teddy Atlas, one of the closest assistant trainers to Cus and also closest to Tyson took a gun to Tyson's head to warn him about sexually harassing his niece. Cus kept Tyson and dismissed Atlas. The point is that you don't really think Cus kept Tyson and got rid of Atlas because Tyson was personable rather than because Cus knew he had a second heavyweight world champion on his hands do you? And who are these people that have "stuck by" Tyson? You don't mean the people who are parading him around now that he is old and harmless and brings them positive publicity do you?

Also, for your amusement, here is that scene badly reenacted:

 

[Jack Stevonovich]

The underlying motivator for a psychopath is being in the position of being the cause of the others pain and/or pleasure.
What differentiates them from everyone else though is they have an unwavering belief that they are that cause so they NEED the other in order to be able to see themselves in that way.
They often hone skills relentlessly so they can derive status from that skillset that puts them in that position automatically.
This causes them to behave and pursue things that puts them into that position socially.
This makes them experts at, "fake it till you make it".

 

[elwani]

Fak off goof, you f*king noobs trying to act all grown up don't know sh!t about Sherdog. Stick to your Jon Jones hate themes and stay in your lane lane noob.