Opinion Is Jimmy Dore right wing now?

Mr Holmes said:
Yeah you said that to save face after I pointed out how flawed your argument was. Forcing a vote puts representatives on record. Nothing can change if you don't try.

You really need an explanation why being a partisan drone is a bad thing??
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No, you brought up Dore's alleged accomplishment in trying to force a vote for a single-payer solution, and I retorted that it's meaningless unless you're actually drafting up something that will realistically pass. Nothing can change if you try aimlessly, either. Moreover, Democrats did push a change through, in spite of endless whinging from Republicans.

No, I don't need an explanation for why being a partisan drone is a bad thing. Do you need an explanation for why being a performative contrarian who will never meaningfully contribute to political change, yet pretend to do so for purpose of grifting is a bad thing?
 
Nizam al-Mulk said:
Being a socialist fora few years is a common origin story of many pundits and thinkers on the quote unquote right.
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It used to be that international socialist movements were in some way (even if just emotionally) connected to the USSR, and people often eventually realized that it was a brutally repressive regime. Some people flipped completely when they got there (and many maintained their intellectual approach), and became single-mindedly focused on fighting Communism, to the point of abandoning their prior domestic-policy preferences. The modern equivalent there is people like the Bulwark crew. There isn't really anything like the USSR on the left today, though. The China/Russia/North Korea/Saudi alliance is far rightist in fact but rhetorically not very interested in that stuff, and similarly, their American supporters are on the right but often willing to profess leftist policy preferences, even while doing nothing to advance those stated preferences.
 
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brothir said:
No, you brought up Dore's alleged accomplishment in trying to force a vote for a single-payer solution, and I retorted that it's meaningless unless you're actually drafting up something that will realistically pass. Nothing can change if you try aimlessly, either. Moreover, Democrats did push a change through, in spite of endless whinging from Republicans.
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First, having an "accomplishment" isn't some sort of qualifier for being left or right. If thats your standard most democrats are even on the left. Second, Dore is a comedian, activist and pundit and you're trying to compare his efforts to a sitting POTUS's signature legislation. Thats just ridiculous. Third, bringing something up for a vote isn't "meaningless". As I just explained it will hold representatives accountable. This is something you have no answer for.

brothir said:
No, I don't need an explanation for why being a partisan drone is a bad thing. Do you need an explanation for why being a performative contrarian who will never meaningfully contribute to political change, yet pretend to do so for purpose of grifting is a bad thing?
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You just asked me to explain why "being in lockstep with the party is a bad thing". Quick pretend you didn't and change the subject. You really bad at this.
 
Mr Holmes said:
First, having an "accomplishment" isn't some sort of qualifier for being left or right. If thats your standard most democrats are even on the left. Second, Dore is a comedian, activist and pundit and you're trying to compare his efforts to a sitting POTUS's signature legislation. Thats just ridiculous. Third, bringing something up for a vote isn't "meaningless". As I just explained it will hold representatives accountable. This is something you have no answer for.
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What do you think his stunt proves? How is it relevant to the issue?

Everyone knows he pretends to be a leftist. The question is where he stands politically, and I think everyone who is trying to get it right can see that he's on the right.
 
Mr Holmes said:
First, having an "accomplishment" isn't some sort of qualifier for being left or right. If thats your standard most democrats are even on the left. Second, Dore is a comedian, activist and pundit and you're trying to compare his efforts to a sitting POTUS's signature legislation. Thats just ridiculous. Third, bringing something up for a vote isn't "meaningless". As I just explained it will hold representatives accountable. This is something you have no answer for.


You just asked me to explain why "being in lockstep with the party is a bad thing". Quick pretend you didn't and change the subject. You really bad at this.
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The point that started our discussion was that certain content-producers were being ostracized. If the idea is that people like Dore are supposed to be held in high regard, accomplishments matter. What's ridiculous is the difference in accomplishment between him, who are irrelevant on the political level, and actual politicians who are held in high regard for their accomplishments.

If you want to do some detailed analysis, where the point is that, say, Dore isn't given enough credence at the level he's functioning at compared to people who are similar to him, then go ahead and do just that. You can spend as much time as you want on establishing that he's not given appropriate respect compared to what I guess would amount to his peers. And if you're successful, you'll have established that an infotainment producer who's light on the info isn't as respected by Democrats as he should be.

Representatives will be held accountable on a pitch that actually has a chance of passing as well. Randomly instigating purity tests on doomed political projects is terrible strategy. "Why won't Democrats self-sabotage!?" cried the Republican.

Yes, "I really bad at this". "You really bad grammar" to you, too. Evidently, you don't realize that deliberately aligning yourself with a policy goal, and being an unthinking drone aren't the same thing. You're not much of a strategic mind, so it's good that no one serious takes your advice.
 
brothir said:
The point that started our discussion was that certain content-producers were being ostracized. If the idea is that people like Dore are supposed to be held in high regard, accomplishments matter.
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Thats not the idea. We're talking about who is on the left and who isn't. Who said anything about Dore being held in high regard?
brothir said:
If you want to do some detailed analysis, where the point is that, say, Dore isn't given enough credence at the level he's functioning at compared to people who are similar to him, then go ahead and do just that. You can spend as much time as you want on establishing that he's not given appropriate respect compared to what I guess would amount to his peers. And if you're successful, you'll have established that an infotainment producer who's light on the info isn't as respected by Democrats as he should be.
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Well, it would make a lot more sense to compare him to someone like Cenk Ughar then to Obama. Its shocking to no one a comedian/activist couldn't accomplish more than a POTUS that had a majority in congress.

brothir said:
Representatives will be held accountable on a pitch that actually has a chance of passing as well. Randomly instigating purity tests on doomed political projects is terrible strategy. "Why won't Democrats self-sabotage!?" cried the Republican.
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Bullshit. Its not like they can say: "I voted no, but it wasn't going to pass anyway!" and use that as a viable excuse. "Its self sabotage to vote on something the people actually want" cried the blue maga NPC.

brothir said:
Yes, "I really bad at this". "You really bad grammar" to you, too. Evidently, you don't realize that deliberately aligning yourself with a policy goal, and being an unthinking drone aren't the same thing. You're not much of a strategic mind, so it's good that no one serious takes your advice.
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Attacking grammar on a karate forum, the last refuge of the defeated. I hold your opinions of me at the same level as a KONG, JVS or Zebby.
 
Mr Holmes said:
Thats not the idea. We're talking about who is on the left and who isn't. Who said anything about Dore being held in high regard?

Well, it would make a lot more sense to compare him to someone like Cenk Ughar then to Obama. Its shocking to no one a comedian/activist couldn't accomplish more than a POTUS that had a majority in congress.

Bullshit. Its not like they can say: "I voted no, but it wasn't going to pass anyway!" and use that as a viable excuse. "Its self sabotage to vote on something the people actually want" cried the blue maga NPC.

Attacking grammar on a karate forum, the last refuge of the defeated. I hold your opinions of me at the same level as a KONG, JVS or Zebby.
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"Ostracized" means being held in such low regard you're not allowed to be a part of the group. Highly regarded would be the opposite of that. If your argument is that Dore deserves to be held in no particular regard at all, it would amount to him being borderline anonymous. Instead he has a fairly decisive online presence, so it's going to go one way or the other.

Sure, Dore is not comparable to Obama, or any accomplished Democratic politician at all. Again, if you want to make a comprehensive accounting of how Dore is undervalued compared to what would be his peers, go ahead.

It wouldn't be an excuse. It's fairly obvious when a strategically sound policy move is going to happen. The planning and passing of the ACA was not a subtle event. Any time you don't have that, you don't want to force a vote, because it's going to be pointless self-sabotage. It's staggering how many times you have to be told the same thing. "Blue maga NPC" does not even come across as remotely coherent name-calling. I'm in favor of expanding subsidized health care, but also in favor of being realistic about what is going to pass given Republicans will fight tooth and nail against it.

Hold me in whatever regard you fashion. It's not material to this discussion. If you want to be mocked less for bad grammar, put more effort into your writing.
 
burningspear said:
When the left became warmongers, many were left homeless.
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But that never happened in reality. Rightists should just be open about their views instead of feeling the need to pretend that the left agrees with them about everything.
 
Jack V Savage said:
What do you think his stunt proves? How is it relevant to the issue?

Everyone knows he pretends to be a leftist. The question is where he stands politically, and I think everyone who is trying to get it right can see that he's on the right.
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I think its more useful to look at the breakdown as anti-establishment vs establishment. Trump is the only viable anti-establishment force in politics at the presidential level and so even though he's categorically against most of the policies someone like Dore espouses Dore would see him as the lesser evil.

Remember some of these moronic lefties are accelerationists so they're happy to see the right gain power and run the country into the ground because they think it opens opportunities for them.
 
Islam Imamate said:
I think its more useful to look at the breakdown as anti-establishment vs establishment. Trump is the only viable anti-establishment force in politics at the presidential level and so even though he's categorically against most of the policies someone like Dore espouses Dore would see him as the lesser evil.

Remember some of these moronic lefties are accelerationists so they're happy to see the right gain power and run the country into the ground because they think it opens opportunities for them.
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I don't think that's the right framing, as to the extent that America has an establishment, it's basically rich people, and Trump is an extreme pro-establishment candidate. His only major legislative accomplishment was another tax cut for corporations and rich individuals.

There is a sense in which respectable society is disgusted by his corruption, incompetence, and vulgar manner. So there’s some kind of underlying reality to what you're talking about. Maybe anti-institutionalism is a better term. It's also better in that "anti-establishment" seems definitionally leftist, while anti-institutionalist views don't traditionally map onto the left/right spectrum, but educational polarization and the corresponding imbalance of human capital means that the right is becoming more anti-institutionalist, and left-wing anti-institutionalists are increasingly supporting the political right. And yes some explicitly believe that chaos is a ladder, while others just intuit that anyone trying to tear the country down is in some sense on their side. These are also people who align with America's foreign enemies.
 
Jack V Savage said:
I don't think that's the right framing, as to the extent that America has an establishment, it's basically rich people, and Trump is an extreme pro-establishment candidate. His only major legislative accomplishment was another tax cut for corporations and rich individuals.

There is a sense in which respectable society is disgusted by his corruption, incompetence, and vulgar manner. So there’s some kind of underlying reality to what you're talking about. Maybe anti-institutionalism is a better term. It's also better in that "anti-establishment" seems definitionally leftist, while anti-institutionalist views don't traditionally map onto the left/right spectrum, but educational polarization and the corresponding imbalance of human capital means that the right is becoming more anti-institutionalist, and left-wing anti-institutionalists are increasingly supporting the political right. And yes some explicitly believe that chaos is a ladder, while others just intuit that anyone trying to tear the country down is in some sense on their side. These are also people who align with America's foreign enemies.
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I do think anti-institutionalism is a better descriptor, I happened to use "anti-establishment" because its the term such folks use to self identify but I agree that framing it around institutions makes more sense. Kind of reminds me of the odd RDS take on oil barons and adjunct professors and how the latter are the true elites. It comes off as nonsensical but if you reframe it as respect for institutions then yeah I guess a University professor is more committed to them than the owner of a car dealership.
 
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