Economy Income inequality and wasteful spending

[Stoic1]

I think I’ve seen you post that you retired as an officer from the Army, correct? If that is the case, I would like to point out that you are the beneficiary of possibly the single most socialist program we run in this country. This isn’t a post saying you haven’t earned what you have got or that you didn’t make good decision.

I am pointing out that I see a lot of anti economically liberal posts from you but you seem to be living the leftist dream right now. Sure you may have saved, but you’re also getting half your paycheck to just be alive. You have healthcare for life for you and your family. You’re probably getting a tax free disability check every month despite probably being more physically capable of working than your peers are. I just want you to remember that next time you shit on any “socialist” agendas. I want you to remember that almost no one working in the free market is getting a deal even a fraction as good as that.

You are, as usual, wrong.

I have no pension. No Tricare for life either. I said fuck this at 17 years.


Equating a pension with socialism? Astounding.

 

[El Panteron]

Capitalism is based on consumerism and is a debt based system that implodes if there's not constant growth. The entire incentive structure for it to exist is people spending money and going into debt. They literally hire experts on human behavior to market to people and atop that, in the US and abroad wages have been stagnating and there's been a gutting of social programs to go along with growing income inequality. This is marketing working as intended, tying people's identity/status to things. This is the result.

I am a Capitalism = bad person and I am smart with money and no where close to being in debt of any kind nor am I remotely materialistic. I know plenty of people who could be as financially well off as me but make poor financial decisions and are in poor health. I could fellate myself and my decision making but I understand it's not that simple, the issue is systemic. It's literally fax over feelings.

The Capitalism = bad people, if I had to guess, are probably writ large less materialistic and more careful financially than others, aside from some of the ones who are pro Capitalism and understand the system well.

Rule is if you met a vile piece of shit in psych university they'd 80% go to marketing and 20% become dynamic style therapists.

I can offer a counterpoint as a fairly materialistic anti-capitalist. Life is meant to be enjoyed and, for all its faults, capitalism gave us a ton of cool, useless shiny trinkets. The values of moderation and temperance befit an exploited class that needs to form its identity around a positive spin of their lack of resources and possibilities. I've never cared about amassing a ton of money and power, but if I can make an expensive present to my wife or my family, get myself some fancy clothes, fuck it I'll do it, life is today.
I do see that in this my culture (I'm a southern Italian) and the "mainline" western culture are very different, so I guess it's normal even the lefties in the West have absorbed this protestant tenets.
Even classic communism, I find, is very sad in framing working as the central value of the lower class. Pushing people to express themselves fully, enjoy objects and try stuff is a strength of the right wing that we can't quite match. Of course it's a trap as it hides trapping people in an endless cycle of debt, slavery and mindless consumption of objects of no significance, but I mean it doesn't have to be this way.

 

[Sinister]

Rule is if you met a vile piece of shit in psych university they'd 80% go to marketing and 20% become dynamic style therapists.

I can offer a counterpoint as a fairly materialistic anti-capitalist. Life is meant to be enjoyed and, for all its faults, capitalism gave us a ton of cool, useless shiny trinkets. The values of moderation and temperance befit an exploited class that needs to form its identity around a positive spin of their lack of resources and possibilities. I've never cared about amassing a ton of money and power, but if I can make an expensive present to my wife or my family, get myself some fancy clothes, fuck it I'll do it, life is today.
I do see that in this my culture (I'm a southern Italian) and the "mainline" western culture are very different, so I guess it's normal even the lefties in the West have absorbed this protestant tenets.
Even classic communism, I find, is very sad in framing working as the central value of the lower class. Pushing people to express themselves fully, enjoy objects and try stuff is a strength of the right wing that we can't quite match. Of course it's a trap as it hides trapping people in an endless cycle of debt, slavery and mindless consumption of objects of no significance, but I mean it doesn't have to be this way.

It's a very good observation that classic communism too much centralized work culture, however I wonder of that's a function of expressing the dynamic between the wealthy class and the class they always have a mind to subjugate. Marx was critiquing the ideology of valuation, and that the workers have inherent value, which is their labor. I dont think it was meant that that's ALL the value they have, but that them having no value except that which is paid to them is kind of a lie. They have value before that even to those who only see them as a resource, and they can demand a fair market cost for that. IMO this is at the center of the current thought process on AI. Capitalists' chief goal with AI is to reduce the cost of labor, of course. And offer essentially nothing to those who this negatively effects, except for the kind of poor-shaming this thread is all about.

But I agree that the idea that work is the culmination of the human experience is another lie it serves the comfort class for people to believe. I mean its woven into religions. Even if someone has a job they don't consider a "job" the line is blurred between whether they are actually "working" or doing what they love. I work more hours than my wife every week while making less, but I dont consider what I do a "job." And if a young kid told anyone they aspired to do what I do, they'd likely be shamed as a delusional dreamer and told to "get a real job." A lot of careers that centralize a talent are treated as such UNTIL the person has some success or fame. And then if/when they fail, even if they WERE wealthy, an "I told you that could never work" mentality is taken from people whose paychecks are signed by someone whose wealth they'll never match in their whole life.

 

[El Panteron]

It's a very good observation that classic communism too much centralized work culture, however I wonder of that's a function of expressing the dynamic between the wealthy class and the class they always have a mind to subjugate. Marx was critiquing the ideology of valuation, and that the workers have inherent value, which is their labor. I dont think it was meant that that's ALL the value they have, but that them having no value except that which is paid to them is kind of a lie. They have value before that even to those who only see them as a resource, and they can demand a fair market cost for that. IMO this is at the center of the current thought process on AI. Capitalists' chief goal with AI is to reduce the cost of labor, of course. And offer essentially nothing to those who this negatively effects, except for the kind of poor-shaming this thread is all about.

But I agree that the idea that work is the culmination of the human experience is another lie it serves the comfort class for people to believe. I mean its woven into religions. Even if someone has a job they don't consider a "job" the line is blurred between whether they are actually "working" or doing what they love. I work more hours than my wife every week while making less, but I dont consider what I do a "job." And if a young kid told anyone they aspired to do what I do, they'd likely be shamed as a delusional dreamer and told to "get a real job." A lot of careers that centralize a talent are treated as such UNTIL the person has some success or fame. And then if/when they fail, even if they WERE wealthy, an "I told you that could never work" mentality is taken from people whose paychecks are signed by someone whose wealth they'll never match in their whole life.

Eh there are 2 different observations here as the word "value" has a meaning both from a moral and an economic standpoint.

The economic side wasn't really a factor in what I was trying to say, and you and marxists are both right in saying there's an inherent value in work, even as a tool in claiming power in the dynamic with the upper class, as a tool for liberation so to speak, a marxist like Paulo Freire would say the current dynamic means even the upper classes aren't free, because they can't operate independently from the exploited class. So it's the one way for humans in the current world to acquire skills and the means to some kind of freedom. But this is me being a poser as I'm not an expert on this shit by any means.

From a psychological standpoint work is fundamental for acquiring a fully formed identity as in individual, and to develop self-efficacy (=a sense of how good you are in a certain thing) and self esteem. Now, is this inherent to work or is it a product of how we see and treat people who don't? I don't know, and there's no way you can reliably prove this either way in a scientific setting (as you don't get to just erase society for an experiment and they told me that stealing babies to raise them in test societies is a "crime against humanity"), but for all it's worth we only get to live in this world, so work is something extremely valuable.

I guess the difference is how you see and use the value work has. I'm happy with my work even if it pays like shit and the research system is completely broken, but at the same time I value it only as much as it benefits me and, ideally, serves its purpose in the larger society, in my case finding the truth and healing people and communities (pretty easy to brainwash yourself with an help profession, have to admit). If the only value of some work is in the act itself, then to me there's a big problem.

I see it more as a byproduct of Marx's and the West protestant work ethic culture, just like my aversion for work is a product of me being a Mediterranean fat ass deadbeat. I won't try to act like my values are universal but they are my values, and the same works for Marx.

 

[Sinister]

Eh there are 2 different observations here as the word "value" has a meaning both from a moral and an economic standpoint.

The economic side wasn't really a factor in what I was trying to say, and you and marxists are both right in saying there's an inherent value in work, even as a tool in claiming power in the dynamic with the upper class, as a tool for liberation so to speak, a marxist like Paulo Freire would say the current dynamic means even the upper classes aren't free, because they can't operate independently from the exploited class. So it's the one way for humans in the current world to acquire skills and the means to some kind of freedom. But this is me being a poser as I'm not an expert on this shit by any means.

From a psychological standpoint work is fundamental for acquiring a fully formed identity as in individual, and to develop self-efficacy (=a sense of how good you are in a certain thing) and self esteem. Now, is this inherent to work or is it a product of how we see and treat people who don't? I don't know, and there's no way you can reliably prove this either way in a scientific setting (as you don't get to just erase society for an experiment and they told me that stealing babies to raise them in test societies is a "crime against humanity"), but for all it's worth we only get to live in this world, so work is something extremely valuable.

I guess the difference is how you see and use the value work has. I'm happy with my work even if it pays like shit and the research system is completely broken, but at the same time I value it only as much as it benefits me and, ideally, serves its purpose in the larger society, in my case finding the truth and healing people and communities (pretty easy to brainwash yourself with an help profession, have to admit). If the only value of some work is in the act itself, then to me there's a big problem.

I see it more as a byproduct of Marx's and the West protestant work ethic culture, just like my aversion for work is a product of me being a Mediterranean fat ass deadbeat. I won't try to act like my values are universal but they are my values, and the same works for Marx.

Good post, and important why we need more occupational philosophers. Lol, not that you are one, but that this kind of discussion has way more "value" than a bunch of insecure males gooning to "hurr durr poor people r so dum."

In terms of defining human existence and identity I definitely think it's not merely about "work" but how that work is defined. That's what I was getting at. So the value is relative. I've had corporate jobs that made me feel completely useless. Nice salary. But a cog in a machine that would function just fine without me, and a machine that aggressively smothered creativity and independent thought. I never lasted very long a jobs like that. Another guy who does what I do recently said something about himself that also defines me which was: "If you want me to do my best work, you really need to leave me the f*ck alone."

I thought about this fairly recently when observing an out of work juggler who is homeless, but he still has his juggling pins. He gets a positive reaction here and I see him every week on the same corner, out there juggling. He definitely gets a better net positive response because hes decent at it, and people just like the idea that he's "doing something." Hes "working" for his money, or food, whatever. But is he? Is that how he views it? Or is that just something he liked doing and still can do, so he does it. Like the street musicians. It made me think of how apt people are to compare him to a guy just standing there and look upon that guy with more disgust by default, because of the perception that he is purposely "doing nothing." His only act is "begging." But they dont know anything about him. Dude might have cancer right this second.

I guess the point is the terms are relative, as is the activity. Question becomes do you feel humans have an inherent right to a dignified existence. And it tickles me that people who would politically force women to birth children are invariably the ones who dont.

 

[TriangleMonkey]

My fellow co-workers that are my age and older, and make the most, drive the least expensive and oldest cars in the parking lot (10yrs and older) and we all own at least one home and another property

All the newer guys (newer generation) drive cars you think the damn director’s would be driving. I joke all the time its a damn car-show on the other side of the lot with these young guys buying Mustangs, Chargers, Raptor trucks, and BMW’s

Can’t imagine what the car-payments alone on any of those would be these days. And all these guys prob either rent or live at home still smdh

 

[Crazy Source]

@Sinister and @El Panteron Thoughtful exchange, fellas. Appreciated.

 

[El Panteron]

Good post, and important why we need more occupational philosophers. Lol, not that you are one, but that this kind of discussion has way more "value" than a bunch of insecure males gooning to "hurr durr poor people r so dum."

In terms of defining human existence and identity I definitely think it's not merely about "work" but how that work is defined. That's what I was getting at. So the value is relative. I've had corporate jobs that made me feel completely useless. Nice salary. But a cog in a machine that would function just fine without me, and a machine that aggressively smothered creativity and independent thought. I never lasted very long a jobs like that. Another guy who does what I do recently said something about himself that also defines me which was: "If you want me to do my best work, you really need to leave me the f*ck alone."

I thought about this fairly recently when observing an out of work juggler who is homeless, but he still has his juggling pins. He gets a positive reaction here and I see him every week on the same corner, out there juggling. He definitely gets a better net positive response because hes decent at it, and people just like the idea that he's "doing something." Hes "working" for his money, or food, whatever. But is he? Is that how he views it? Or is that just something he liked doing and still can do, so he does it. Like the street musicians. It made me think of how apt people are to compare him to a guy just standing there and look upon that guy with more disgust by default, because of the perception that he is purposely "doing nothing." His only act is "begging." But they dont know anything about him. Dude might have cancer right this second.

I guess the point is the terms are relative, as is the activity. Question becomes do you feel humans have an inherent right to a dignified existence. And it tickles me that people who would politically force women to birth children are invariably the ones who dont.

I think a big problem is how disconnected we've become from the work we do and objects we produce. Like, even if you're a carpenter, you're broke as fuck, it's still easy to find meaning in a table or something: you've made it with your skills, it will stay at someone's house for decades and so on. What we do now seems to have zero impact on anything, it's just to feed this bloated system. You can try to trick yourself into thinking it's ok and you're just doing it to get means to do what you actually like, but still working is most of what we do (well that and sleeping).
Feels like all the work we do only fuels work for others, that will give us work and so on forever.

I don't want to go into an anti modernist fuckwit rabbit hole, I'm not saying specialised work and factories have no value, I still like having my things. But I can't help but think there's a new balance to be found. I don't have the solution to this but I see with my eyes what it does to people. Ironically it gives me a lot of work.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

I think a big problem is how disconnected we've become from the work we do and objects we produce. Like, even if you're a carpenter, you're broke as fuck,

Carpenter's here make good money.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

My fellow co-workers that are my age and older, and make the most, drive the least expensive and oldest cars in the parking lot (10yrs and older) and we all own at least one home and another property

All the newer guys (newer generation) drive cars you think the damn director’s would be driving. I joke all the time its a damn car-show on the other side of the lot with these young guys buying Mustangs, Chargers, Raptor trucks, and BMW’s

Can’t imagine what the car-payments alone on any of those would be these days. And all these guys prob either rent or live at home still smdh

And I bet they think the answer is socialism.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

I guess the point is the terms are relative, as is the activity. Question becomes do you feel humans have an inherent right to a dignified existence. And it tickles me that people who would politically force women to birth children are invariably the ones who dont.

No. That's something you have to earn. And it's not hard. Life is easy in the western world. Some people are just lazy.

 

[Crazy Source]

Ironically it gives me a lot of work.

Are you a psychiatrist/psychologist?

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

I think I’ve seen you post that you retired as an officer from the Army, correct? If that is the case, I would like to point out that you are the beneficiary of possibly the single most socialist program we run in this country. This isn’t a post saying you haven’t earned what you have got or that you didn’t make good decision.

Of course it is. Own it.

 

[Sinister]

No. That's something you have to earn. And it's not hard. Life is easy in the western world. Some people are just lazy.

"All Lives Matter...except the unemployed."

Carpenter's here make good money.

Plenty of out of work carpenters here with construction very very slow due to market instability. Companies holding off on building and renovating projects.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

"All Lives Matter...except the unemployed."

The 'lives matter' stuff is referring to people getting murdered. And the chronically unemployed are not the same as a person between jobs.

I'm going to have to ask an indelicate question. Were you raised by a single mom, by any chance?

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

Plenty of out of work carpenters here with construction very very slow due to market instability. Companies holding off on building and renovating projects.

They should move then. There's work for people who want it.

 

[Sinister]

I think a big problem is how disconnected we've become from the work we do and objects we produce. Like, even if you're a carpenter, you're broke as fuck, it's still easy to find meaning in a table or something: you've made it with your skills, it will stay at someone's house for decades and so on. What we do now seems to have zero impact on anything, it's just to feed this bloated system. You can try to trick yourself into thinking it's ok and you're just doing it to get means to do what you actually like, but still working is most of what we do (well that and sleeping).
Feels like all the work we do only fuels work for others, that will give us work and so on forever.

I don't want to go into an anti modernist fuckwit rabbit hole, I'm not saying specialised work and factories have no value, I still like having my things. But I can't help but think there's a new balance to be found. I don't have the solution to this but I see with my eyes what it does to people. Ironically it gives me a lot of work.

I saw an article the other day on how the comfort class believes that their own consumer spending is enough to keep the entire US out of economic recession, and it churned my stomach. The implication being that their ability to unendingly purchase sh*t they don't need justifies the fact that their policy preferences assure the working class buying power collapses. How can people feel connected to a system that not only permits this, but celebrates it and puts these people on a pedestal? The height of gross consumer culture. Similar to how death of American culture is actually corporatist infiltration. Why is Denny's "America's Diner?" Its pretty terrible in quality and doesnt even have a good price point anymore. But large corporate chains to into smaller communities with the distinct goal of eradicating local business that ACTUALLY carries the identity of the community. Most people still go to these places due largely to nostalgia, not because it's better.

Point being this disconnect is easy after Bernays was successful in helping create an environment where consumer spending became driven by "wants" and not "needs." Where the things a person has because status symbols as opposed to practical. I use these clips a lot as reference, but they express well the absurdity:

 

[Sinister]

They should move then. There's work for people who want it.

Because they all have enough money to relocate, especially after being out of work.

 

[ColemanwastheGOAT]

Point being this disconnect is easy after Bernays was successful in helping create an environment where consumer spending became driven by "wants" and not "needs." Where the things a person has because status symbols as opposed to practical. I use these clips a lot as reference, but they express well the absurdity:

Ah so you actually agree with the point of my thread. Good.

 

[El Panteron]

Are you a psychiatrist/psychologist?

I'm a psychologist. I do research whenever I get hired and I'm trained in cognitive-behavioural and systemic therapy (I'm studying ACT therapy now), I also did some community interventions (only as an associate) but it's very frustrating and unreliable.