Illa saying what I've been saying

[Legendary]

While I generally hate the politics of California, one thing I like about what they do is require fight night weigh-ins. I think all states should do that and we'd have a lot more info on actual competition weights instead of speculation or what the fighters say which may be inaccurate at times.

I do agree that there needs to be some limit on weight cutting but where do we set that limit? A percent of body weight? Hydration tests? Does body fat % play into this at all? Beyond that, some guys can cut weight better/safer than others.

And Kelvin is a bad example as others have mentioned. Guy showed up shredded in his first fight post UFC against Brian Melancon and he wrecked Melancon in the first round. That disciplined Kelvin easily could have been champ post GSP but he likes to eat too much and his mother making him 2 or 3 super burritos a day doesn't help.

View attachment 1091651

Kelvin was 21 here its not a fair comparison.

Brian Melancon retired due to kidney issues from weight cutting so that makes it even worse.

 

[rjmbrd]

And the method to circumvent the hydration testing is well known and had been for years and it is significantly MORE dangerous than normal weight cutting because it involves manipulation and depletion of electrolytes.

You go in the fail category.
I suggest you watch the video.

This is conjecture bullshit.

An absolute data based FACT is that weight cutting injuries have gone down an order of magnitude since the NCAA instituted their weight cutting criteria.

Not only do you have no idea what you're talking about, you don't even know what is commonly known among those who are actually involved in weight cutting sports.

You're an idiot spreading misinformation.

 

[jeff7b9]

Same day weigh ins would do, fighters would have to fight closer to their natural weight. On a same day weigh in you're only cutting 5 to 7 pounds, so someone who walks around close to 145 is fighting at 135 and so on.

Again, the requirement to think this is a good solution is to not have thought it through.

The only thing that will change if MMA orgs or athletic commissions went to same day weigh ins is that fighters would not have adequate time to rehydrate, thus they would be fighting and taking trauma to the brain while dehydrated.


I don't know where people get this idea that a snap of the fingers will magically undo 50+ years of weigh cutting culture and psychology such that fighters will willingly give up the advantage they perceive from being as big as possible while using dehydration as a method to quickly remove and replace a significant amount of weight.

 

[rorschach51]

Again, the requirement to think this is a good solution is to not have thought it through.

The only thing that will change if MMA orgs or athletic commissions went to same day weigh ins is that fighters would not have adequate time to rehydrate, thus they would be fighting and taking trauma to the brain while dehydrated.


I don't know where people get this idea that a snap of the fingers will magically undo 50+ years of weigh cutting culture and psychology such that fighters will willingly give up the advantage they perceive from being as big as possible while using dehydration as a method to quickly remove and replace a significant amount of weight.

You weigh in a 8 am, you rehydrate the 5-7 pounds by noon, take a nap the card doesn't usually start till 5pm. Plenty of time for even first fight on the fight to be recouped and ready. Obviously with the rule change you're not gonna be cutting more than that on same day weigh ins. More weight classes would help here as well, but then you run into the problems boxing has with so many champions.

 

[bigfootsbreath]

Ilia looks small at 145, how the hell does he cut so much weight.
His bones must be made of steel, thus KO power.

Being a fatass in between fights is the reason. That why walking around weight is one of the most retarded stats that cte fight fans ever could use. DJ walking around at 220+ lbs doesn't mean mighty mouse should be fight at HW or LHW or MW or WW or even LW.

 

[jeff7b9]

This is conjecture bullshit.

An absolute data based FACT is that weight cutting injuries have gone down an order of magnitude since the NCAA instituted their weight cutting criteria.

Not only do you have no idea what you're talking about, you don't even know what is commonly known among those who are actually involved in weight cutting sports.

You're an idiot spreading misinformation.

You can be emotional if you want but you are absolutely dead wrong in regards to the topic being debated.

If you are capable of having a factual debate feel free to do so, if you are just going to have a temper tantrum while bringing no actual RELEVANT information or counter argument then I won't waste my time replying to you.

You propose that hydration testing is a valid solution to weight cutting in MMA. This has been studied and that study showed that not only is there a well known method within both the wrestling community and the combat sports community, but that method which is "easy to do with simple instructions anyone could follow" but it is also significantly MORE DANGEROUS to the health of the athlete.

First off. You are talking about a different sport. Wrestling is not mma and does not involve striking to the head, hence the safety factors are entirely different. It is possible that (temporarily until the information on how to beat the test gets wide spread enough ) hydration testing may lower injuries in college wrestlers. I haven't studied that and that is not the topic being debated. Feel free to share data or studies on that if you have them.

The topic being debated is whether hydration testing is a legitimate solution to solve the problems of excessive weight cutting in mma and that exact thing was studied and tested in the video I linked before, and they demonstrated beating the test while cutting a bunch of weight thus it is confirmed that hydration testing is NOT a valid solution to prevent large weight cuts

Unfortunately, the way hydration testing is circumvented involves manipulating the electrolytes (sodium, potassium calcium etc) which is way more dangerous than dehydration alone.

TLD: not only do fighters still cut enormous amounts of weight while passing hydration tests, but the way they do it tricks their body (and the test) into thinking it is hydrated and in the process it takes the electrolyte levels to very dangerous low levels.

 

[jeff7b9]

You weigh in a 8 am, you rehydrate the 5-7 pounds by noon, take a nap the card doesn't usually start till 5pm. Plenty of time for even first fight on the fight to be recouped and ready.

All this will accomplish is to make it more difficult and lomit fighters ability to rehydrate.

This is the same logic that was used to justify removing the IVs. Did that stop weight cutting? No. Weight cutting is more extreme than ever.

Obviously with the rule change you're not gonna be cutting more than that on same day weigh ins.

What is your logic as to why this would do anything to change fighters cutting a significant portion of weight prior to the day of weigh ins?

More weight classes would help here as well, but then you run into the problems boxing has with so many champions.

I agree with this at least in terms of logic/theory

(but I don't want more weight classes)

 

[shunyata]

it will never happen

too much legacy built into the divisions.

you would create multiple '2 division champs' and have champions comparing themselves to previous ones. Merab moved up to LW "you know when i put on this belt i see all the greats who came before me in this division like khabib, frankie edgar, bj penn"

It won't happen for a lot of reasons, but you could break the cycle with same day weigh ins and walk out weight.

Give a bit more variance but for example make 170 mean you weigh 170-175 while walking out to the cage.

You'd still have guys trying to game that by walking into the cage dry, but it would take a lot of the advantage of heavy cutting with a full rehydration away.

 

[rorschach51]

What is your logic as to why this would do anything to change fighters cutting a significant portion of weight prior to the day of weigh ins?

Because it would be extremely risky to cut more weight than that on a same day weigh in. 5 to 7 pounds can be done safely, more than that would be very unhealthy. I'm guess I'm talking about the weight classes from 125 to 155, if your natural weight is closer to 170 or above you could cut a few more pounds then that safely on same day weigh ins.

 

[rorschach51]

(but I don't want more weight classes)

Nobody does.

 

[USA!USA!]

Honestly shocked the UFC hasn't had a death in regards to weight cutting yet.. it has to be the most extreme sport where it happens.. Dana must thank God every single day that he is dodging that bullet

 

[jeff7b9]

Because it would be extremely risky to cut more weight than that on a same day weigh in. 5 to 7 pounds can be done safely, more than that would be very unhealthy. I'm guess I'm talking about the weight classes from 125 to 155, if your natural weight is closer to 170 or above you could cut a few more pounds then that safely on same day weigh ins.

Ok. Perhaps we have a misunderstanding here.

125-155 cool.

So fighter A walks between camps at 195

Leans out in camp, comes into fight week 183
Water load, monitor sodium and carbs all that shit in the early part of the week.

Thursday and friday especially late Friday he dehydrates to 163.

Saturday he cuts 7 pounds to weigh in 156.

Q1) How did the same day weigh in prevent him from cutting 27 pounds?

Q2) Is the fighter healthier in this scenario where he only has 8-12 hours to rehydrate vs current protocol where he would have 30-36 hours to rehydrate?

Q3) In which scenario does he perform better?

[ ] Sleeping dehydrated the night before the fight and having 1/3 of the time to rehydrate

[ ] Sleeping hydrated on Friday, 30+hours to recover, rehydrate, eat WAY WAY before the fight so you aren't fighting with low blood sugar or feeling like you are going to puke

 

[doozer]

I support reducing weight cutting. They do it in some sports, it’s not unattainable. Part of it is testing fighters hydration levels so they can’t dehydrate beyond a basic level.

However I don’t blame any fighters for weight cutting right now. It is allowed and widely utilized. I don’t expect fighters to not take advantage of something that is allowed. Don’t like fighters taking advantage of a loop hole almost everyone using blame the rules not the fighter. So what that some fighters are better at it then others, the others can get better at it if they want.

Yes allowing large weight cutting is stupid.

 

[2432sj]

Wouldn’t it be easier to have a second, fight day weigh-in and limit how much above the weight class limit a guy can be?

 

[rorschach51]

Ok. Perhaps we have a misunderstanding here.

125-155 cool.

So fighter A walks between camps at 195

Leans out in camp, comes into fight week 183
Water load, monitor sodium and carbs all that shit in the early part of the week.

Thursday and friday especially late Friday he dehydrates to 163.

Saturday he cuts 7 pounds to weigh in 156.

Q1) How did the same day weigh in prevent him from cutting 27 pounds?

Q2) Is the fighter healthier in this scenario where he only has 8-12 hours to rehydrate vs current protocol where he would have 30-36 hours to rehydrate?

Q3) In which scenario does he perform better?

[ ] Sleeping dehydrated the night before the fight and having 1/3 of the time to rehydrate

[ ] Sleeping hydrated on Friday, 30+hours to recover, rehydrate, eat WAY WAY before the fight so you aren't fighting with low blood sugar or feeling like you are going to puke

Obviously the same day weigh in is meant to discourage those previous steps because it can't be done safely. It is meant to encourage someone who stays in shape between fights (say at 195 pounds) to fight at 185. the point is it suppose to drastically reduce the cutting of excessive weight, so someone who walks around at 195 would cut closer to their natural at to 185, someone who walks around closer to 180 would fight at 170 and so on. I don't claim to be a expert, but that's the idea of trying to discourage huge weight cuts by same day weigh ins.

 

[HuskySamoan]

Umm I don't think Makhachev is super healthy at 190-200lbs lol. Probably at 170. Look what Khabib looks like at 200lbs, most guys are at least a bit overweight when they are around 200lbs. Unless they are half decently tall that is.

Islam probably pretty healthy at 185lbs. I bet that is his walk around weight when he's 12-15% bodyfat. He trims down to like 9% bodyfat to get to 172-175lbs then does his water cut to make 155 and comes back in the cage around 175lbs, maybe a little heavier, absolutely shredded. It's not that hard to figure out if you actually done the process. He's shredded in the cage at 176lbs and you think he's healthy walking around with a full stomach at 170? Lmao.

 

[rjmbrd]

You can be emotional if you want but you are absolutely dead wrong in regards to the topic being debated.

No - you are full of shit. The data is clear - the NCAA solved weight cutting ~20 years ago. You have no idea what you're talking about, just a bullshitter.

If you are capable of having a factual debate feel free to do so, if you are just going to have a temper tantrum while bringing no actual RELEVANT information or counter argument then I won't waste my time replying to you.

The NCAA solved weight cutting 20 years ago and grave injuries from weight cuts have effectively disappeared. You're a bullshitter who has no idea what you're talking about.

You propose that hydration testing is a valid solution to weight cutting in MMA. This has been studied and that study showed that not only is there a well known method within both the wrestling community and the combat sports community, but that method which is "easy to do with simple instructions anyone could follow" but it is also significantly MORE DANGEROUS to the health of the athlete.

First off. You are talking about a different sport. Wrestling is not mma and does not involve striking to the head, hence the safety factors are entirely different. It is possible that (temporarily until the information on how to beat the test gets wide spread enough ) hydration testing may lower injuries in college wrestlers. I haven't studied that and that is not the topic being debated. Feel free to share data or studies on that if you have them.

The topic being debated is whether hydration testing is a legitimate solution to solve the problems of excessive weight cutting in mma and that exact thing was studied and tested in the video I linked before, and they demonstrated beating the test while cutting a bunch of weight thus it is confirmed that hydration testing is NOT a valid solution to prevent large weight cuts

Unfortunately, the way hydration testing is circumvented involves manipulating the electrolytes (sodium, potassium calcium etc) which is way more dangerous than dehydration alone.

TLD: not only do fighters still cut enormous amounts of weight while passing hydration tests, but the way they do it tricks their body (and the test) into thinking it is hydrated and in the process it takes the electrolyte levels to very dangerous low levels.

You don't even know what you don't know.

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

Lol no way he's a big weight cutter. He doesn't even look big for FW. Max looked so much bigger than him.

He himself said he weighs 180+ walking around weight.

 

[Dowdy]

Add a 160lbs and 220lbs class then it'll make more sense

 

[ElLunico]

He himself said he weighs 180+ walking around weight.

Lol he bullshitting. Hes 5'6, 5'7 at most and he's not really that stocky. He's not bigger than Volk. He looked much smaller than Max. There's a photo of him and Joe Rogan when he did Joe's podcast and he looks tiny.

He can weigh 180 but that would be him way way outta shape