If wolves were introduced into Africa.

[pookiyama]

Hyena wolf comparison: The bite force of a hyena is enough to quickly pierce through the lions skin. A wolfs will not.

As an analogy, imagine fighting 20 midgets 1/4th your weight. Thats a Lion vs a pack of wolves.
Now imagine fighting 20 midgets 1/4th your weight that are holding small knives. Thats a Lion vs. a cackle of Hyenas.

Savannah life would be hard for wolves, theyre bigger than they need to be for the size of the prey theyll kill. Theyll mostly be running herbivores to death. African Wild dog will do it better because they require less food.

But in the Kongo, foresty and mountainy central africa, they could make it. Chimpanzees are constantly in small warring packs, and Wolfs are swift, stealthy opportunists.

 

[Jack Reacheround]

The only thing scarier than a Male Lion is a Kodiak Bear or Polar Bear. Imagine these mofos after you. Ghost and the Darkness shit. no fake shit like the Grey.

Even my cat, who is fairly small for a male cat, is scary when he decides he wants to play and that I am not allowed to leave. He gets that Chuck Liddell look in his eye. And the second I make a move, he jumps on my leg like it’s a wildebeest. I can’t imagine a larger version of him the size of a lion.

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

without a doubt becoming an alpha lions and maintaining that status means you accept dominance fights as normal and necessary part of your life. You have no fear of life ending injuries in those exchanges as they are just part of life unless you want to be a beta and try to avoid all conflict.

This isn't entirely true. Male Tigers have to compete for territory and for mates and absolutely fight till the death at times over it. Male Lions also form whats known as a 'coalition' with other males in the pride that help them fight off other intruders such as other male Lions -Tiger do not do this, they do everything on their own. Lions do not always do everything on their own. Everything in a full grown Tigers life can be do or die to a degree where as Lions have their Pride to support them if needed.

So theres a bit of a trade off here.

That said, Alpha Male Lions do fight for that status, while Tigers are solitary and may go a while without an encounter. But Tigers absolutely fight, and some of them in tighter territories fight constantly. So this is largely circumstantial. But the Lions ability to be bailed out could be a weakness in its preparation as opposed to the Tigers mentality of everything is always on the line when a confrontation is necessary.

A Tiger is never looking for that type of fight like many other alpha predators. Unless injured and struggling to find food, they would always prefer to take down outmatched prey with quick lethality and little damage risk to themselves. A Tiger would take no pride, zero, in winning a fight but walking away hobbled and at risk. An injured lion can take the time to heal, if possible, within the safety and feeding of the Pride and an injured Tiger has no such luxury.

Again, not entirely true. They attack and kill Black Bears (who are competition for food as well as food) if they enter their territory. They also attack and Kill Crocodiles (Tigers being notorious swimmers). And interestingly, they don't typically eat the crocs -they leave them out as a warning to other Crocs for stealing their food. And on top of that, they will swim out into the Crocs territory on occasion to either grab their kill and drag it back, or drag a Croc back to shore and kill it.


And bringing up that a Tiger may not want to fight as bad is moot if a male Lion enters its territory -not only will that Tiger want to fight, it will want to rip that Lions heart out and spit it at its pride. You do not enter a full grown male Tigers territory and think its just going to shrug it off because it doesn't want to get a booboo.

So again, circumstantial. this all depends on what the motivations are. A lone Lion may have the same 'live to fight another day' mentality as well if it doesn't have its pride standing behind it, or it isn't fighting for something in particular.

So while I take no position on this debate and think the answer would be 'it depends', I could certainly see a motivated lion with that look in his eye taking on and beating a Tiger who would rather just leave instead of fighting. Also that mane the Lion has is an awesome defensive weapon protecting one of the most vulnerable areas in a fight. That said even if a Tiger commiting to the fight similarly is rare, i would not be shocked if they win when they do.

Obviously theres proof of Lions winning these encounters (mostly in captivity under any number of circumstances), so it isn't necessary to completely count them out. But in all my reading about big cats -and this topic specifically (this is at least the 10th time in roughly 10 years I've been involved on this site in this exact discussion) it favors the Tiger. All the youtube videos out there of them fighting in Zoos, actual reported and documented incidents of Tigers killing Lions in captivity, all the conservationists, Zoologists, and records from ancient civilizations that pitted them against one another point to the Tiger being the more dominant of the two 1v1.


Beatty, the 'Lion tamer' is the one guy out there that has different stories. And we'll get to that..

 

[D Train]

I feel like coyotes could survive anywhere.
Also, I like tigers more than lions, but I think lions have an advantage in a fight due to their manes. Tigers generally attack the neck and that is going to be well protected on lion.

 

[Hog-train]

lions would fuck them in the ass on the regular just for fun

Disagree. The wolves would just adapt and become opportunity hunters and scavengers. Similar to Coyotes who are basically a sub-species of wolf.

We know this way of surviving is possible because wild dogs already do this successfully in Africa against much larger hyenas and lions.

Wolves are larger than the African wild dogs, so they would probably displace them in the ecosystem.

The wolves will probably get smaller. Either that, or they could adapt into super large packs and/or become larger themselves.

 

[pookiyama]

I feel like coyotes could survive anywhere.
Also, I like tigers more than lions, but I think lions have an advantage in a fight due to their manes. Tigers generally attack the neck and that is going to be well protected on lion.

Tigers can balance and fight on their back two legs, swinging with their front two. Lions can not. Tigers usually kill Lions in captivity by quite literally beating their face in until parts fall off.

The Lion has to go for the neck to get the kill, since they cannot balance at striking distance. They usually dont win because they have to get close and outgrapple a bigger stronger cat while getting hit.

Imagine Ben Askren fighting Yoel Romero. Thats the battle for the Lion.

 

[b-hop]

tbf, nothing is a match for a healthy bull hippo in his prime except an African elephant.

wrong.

 

[dissectingaorticaneurysm]

wrong.

those are injured and old hippos as you can clearly see. My point stands.

 

[minute bull]

AIN'T NO MOTHERFUCKING IFS, VINCENT

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

I’m sure they are well educated in their respective fields, but I don’t believe for a moment that many (if any) of them have have actually witnessed serious fights between the two. Let alone the number of fights the big cat tamers have witnessed. It would be the equivalent of asking a physician to pick the winner of a fight between two humans. Hands on experience with real life accounts mean more (at least on this particular topic) than education. That is why I was so interested in their take when digging into the matter.

These are based on observations of confrontations between the animals in captivity, reserves, and historical records.

As for Beatty, his claims are based off of any number of variables that I don't know theres a lot of detailed info on. Were these Tigers fully grown males, born in captivity or the wild? Were they largely females that were killed, were the Tigers around a Pride of Lions and on their own when killed (in some cases they were btw)..?

There are variables and circumstances to this stuff..

For example the case of (Bobby and Caeser). Bobby (a Male Tiger) was set to fight Caeser (a Male Lion).. when the fight broke out initially, the Tiger easily took the Lion down and was holding it by the main and going for the throat. It also lacked for action so the director for the film asked Beatty to do something.. so he fucking sprays ammonia in the Tigers eyes causing Bobby to immediately release the Lion. When they stood up after that the Tiger was clearly fucked up from the ammonia and took a wild swipe at the Lion which left an opening for the Tiger to be killed.

And that's a documented example of one of his 'the Lion always wins'.

So, grain of salt is the word of the day there.

If you don’t trust Clyde Beatty’s estimation, look no further than virtually any other big cat tamer. I have yet to see one claim the tiger is the more fearsome fighter. Many of them have lost a substantial amount of money from lions killing their tigers. There may be a few tamers with opinions to the contrary, I just haven’t come across them while searching the topic.

No problem..

John Smith Clarke, a British lion tamer, said, in a lecture on the fight between a tiger and a lion given to the Glasgow Zoological Society, while showing the actual fight on the screen, "in 100 cases out of 100, the tiger would always beat the lion. It was far more agile, it was not so clumsy in its movements, it was equally strong, it was equally armed, but it fought in a different way. The tiger very often fought rolling on its back and held the lion in its grip until it defeated him."

^And he observed many of these encounters, they aren't based off of theories and so on.


Or how about a modern one form a conservationist who owns tons of these big cats and keeps them on a huge reservation in Africa and has seen plenty of encounters between them..

John Varty: "People always ask me which one is bigger? If a tiger and a lion had a fight, which one would win? Well, I've seen tigers crunch up a full-grown leopard tortoise like it was nothing. And lions try, but they just don't get it right. If there's a fight, the tiger will win, every time."

^Varty is super controversial in the Animal world, but he has the clout for these opinions because he owns many of them and keeps them in a semi natural habitat. I believe he answers with the tortoise shell instead of an actual fight because he's already frowned on by people in that world to some degree.. but there have been many encounters at his park with deaths involved. I believe at this point the cats are separated atm in the park, but with him you never know..

I admire both animals, maybe even with a preference for tigers. I just put more stock in the opinion of folks who have watched these animals engaged in mortal combat with each other rather than speculation from even well educated people.

I do as well. But I put stock in many sources, not just 1.


Not only that, but I've seen way too much evidence myself in filmed encounters where the Lions just get handled by the Tigers. Theres also far more reported incidents at Zoos/preserves over the decades of Tigers killing Lions more often than the other way around.


From the Romans, to people like Varty, Clarke, Beatty and many many more I've read up on this and have drawn my conclusions based on what I consider overwhelming evidence that full grown Male Tigers will win most encounters. I dig both animals, but for discussions sake I'm in the Tigers corner here..


..especially so if its a Siberian

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

Tigers can balance and fight on their back two legs, swinging with their front two. Lions can not. Tigers usually kill Lions in captivity by quite literally beating their face in until parts fall off.

The Lion has to go for the neck to get the kill, since they cannot balance at striking distance. They usually dont win because they have to get close and outgrapple a bigger stronger cat while getting hit.

Imagine Ben Askren fighting Yoel Romero. Thats the battle for the Lion.

Lions actually can use both paws for swipes, but not as well as a Tiger, and they seem to prefer not to. Some of it has to do with the Lions rear legs not being as strong as the rest of them.


A Male Tiger is more dense muscle wise and is more of an athlete than a Lion is.. to put it simply. Male African Lions have slightly longer limbs than the average male Tiger and are actually slightly taller, but they are not as powerful as a Male Tiger, and typically not as heavy.

 

[pookiyama]

Lions gotta bite that neck, or throw paws with no balance. Longer arms and taller shoulder height still put Lion at a massive range disadvantage considering the angle the Lion has to swipe at. 30Kgs of dense muscle mass advantage, its basically a weight class difference comparatively. The Lions that do win gotta be respected.

 

[2gps125]

Even my cat, who is fairly small for a male cat, is scary when he decides he wants to play and that I am not allowed to leave. He gets that Chuck Liddell look in his eye. And the second I make a move, he jumps on my leg like it’s a wildebeest. I can’t imagine a larger version of him the size of a lion.

It would look like this.



This is what you would do.

 

[ObamaPhoneLady]

These little guys are basically a better version of wolves.

 

[ObamaPhoneLady]

This. Wolves are a bigger, stronger, version of the dogs Africa already has. They would likely replace them on the food chain.

Lol. African wild dogs are the most efficient killers in Africa. Wolves wouldn't be able to keep up.

 

[Hatorade]

Well, a pack of wolves can kill any land animal on earth if they're hungry enough. Africa would be easy pickings for a pack of skilled wolves IMO. The place is crawling with life.

The real question is if Lions could make it in North America?

 

[gspieler]

Lol. African wild dogs are the most efficient killers in Africa. Wolves wouldn't be able to keep up.

Wolves are excellent hunters in their own right. Also, I don't see anything stopping them from taking painted dog kills at will. And in any sort of territorial dispute, my money is on the wolves. There a lot more variables than just who has the higher kill rate.

 

[Wolf Of Sherdog]

I try and stay out of the hypothetical Lion vs Tiger discussions (other than dropping snarky one liners here and there), something about it just seems distasteful. But forums are for sharing information so here goes... nearly every person that has actually worked with both in mixed company (lions and tigers together) claims the lion reigns supreme. Clyde Beatty (a famous big cat tamer) claims to have never lost a lion to a tiger, but lost 25 tigers to lion attacks throughout the years (only two being Siberian tigers, the others Bengals). Other big cat tamers/trainers have claimed similar experiences, with tigers killing lions being a very rare thing. Tigers look dominant in short tussles when paws are flying but when it comes to blood, the lion is almost always the victor. This was shocking to me, as I always favored tigers as a younger man. But the accounts from folks that have witnessed countless fights between the two tell a similar story. There is an old story in Popular Mechanics from Clyde Beatty where he goes into great detail about the interactions of Lions and Tigers he witnessed in his years as a tamer. It would likely change your perspective of which big cat is the better fighter as a general rule.

I remember seeing a video of some fucked up chinese open zoo where there were big packs of tigers and lions in same area. The lions were afraid and got their ass beat and dominated all over by the tigers.

 

[Jack Reacheround]

Well, a pack of wolves can kill any land animal on earth if they're hungry enough. Africa would be easy pickings for a pack of skilled wolves IMO. The place is crawling with life.

The real question is if Lions could make it in North America?

Lions would never make it here. We have too many of their natural predators - dentists.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

tbf, nothing is a match for a healthy bull hippo in his prime except an African elephant.

I wanna see a hippo vs rhino showdown for the #2 spot.

Tossing a damn buffalo around is damn impressive



I couldn't find another vid where a rhino and a zebra are in an enclosed pen. Holy shit the rhino brutalizes the poor zebra. It kept goring it and tossing it in the air like a rag doll. Poor zebra couldn't get away.