If universe started from big bang, then what was before big bang?

Work Play said:
Yes, but you could still be making an observation from outside our universe, to a degree of certainty that convinces you, and you might be able to use the new theory to make falsifiable predictions. I'm just arguing that we might learn the properties of something from beyond our own spacetime. It's not ruled out, and it seems likely to me that something like that will happen.
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It's too bad that Dark flow was debunked, that would have really stirred the pot and been a huge paradigm shift for a lot of people.
 
Jesus Freak said:
Love how you and your crew of flunkies look down upon ancient people, but don't seem to bat an eye at bagillion-zillion-year time-frames.

So awesome.
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I'm trained in Catholic apologetics and Astronomy both; have been an amateur astronomer all my life, so in turn I find it awesome when people who don't know much about science think their lack of knowledge is a firm foundation for discussion.
 
Voodoo_Child906 said:
It's too bad that Dark flow was debunked, that would have really stirred the pot and been a huge paradigm shift for a lot of people.
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I don't understand any of that dark flow stuff, but a crazy shakeup would be great.
 
Overpressure said:
I'm trained in Catholic apologetics and Astronomy both; have been an amateur astronomer all my life, so in turn I find it awesome when people who don't know much about science think their lack of knowledge is a firm foundation for discussion.
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boom
 
Madmick said:
As an agnostic I have no problem with this. I become frustrated when Christians insist that there is "evidence" for God or that they can prove him, and trust me, many of them will attest this. They have on this very board again and again over the years. It's mind-boggling. What "evidence" could be there be that matters? None whatsoever. In the case of Christianity, specifically, it's a belief system predicated on these principles: witness and believe. In our case we don't even witness. We read the accounts of witnesses. It's not a matter of investigation or proof; it's a matter of revelation.

This wouldn't be a problem except a fact that seems to irritate a portion of Christians is that we've discovered the governments that tend to produce the best qualities of life divorce that sort of supernatural belief from rational policy-making. These are better dictated by facts that can be logically observed and argued.
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1) you would get proof like God being the uncaused cause of everything
2) the new testament does have witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus and many people persecuted and martyred for their belief
3) you would also have some predictions that came true like the dream of nebechunzzer (sp?) in Daniel. Of course you would have debate about the year the book was written 2nd century BC vs 6th century BC (I have read the research and 6th century BC is more likely and not impossible)

The greatest proof you will ever have is personal experience.

Now, not proof of it being true, but we have prospered the most under judeo-christian influence
 
Overpressure said:
I'm trained in Catholic apologetics and Astronomy both; have been an amateur astronomer all my life, so in turn I find it awesome when people who don't know much about science think their lack of knowledge is a firm foundation for discussion.
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Amateur astronomer, you say?

Shouldn't you be doing some bully's homework right now!?
 
Work Play said:
I don't understand any of that dark flow stuff, but a crazy shakeup would be great.
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Some scientists were noticing movements of stars, galaxies and galaxy clusters towards the constellations of Centaurus and Hydra. Since no localized phenomena (that they knew of) could have that much pull over that much area they theorized that it could be another universe's gravity pulling on our own. That would have been crazy and given evidence to String Theory cosmology.
 
Voodoo_Child906 said:
Some scientists were noticing movements of stars, galaxies and galaxy clusters towards the constellations of Centaurus and Hydra. Since no localized phenomena (that they knew of) could have that much pull over that much area they theorized that it could be another universe's gravity pulling on our own. That would have been crazy and given evidence to String Theory cosmology.
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I heard galaxies were moving toward a spot, but I didn't know it would have helped string theory, wow. I feel so sorry for string theorists- the math they have accomplished sounds astounding and they have to be onto something. I just feel like they're missing a variable that is causing them to use the extra dimensions. Or that maybe the variable is something that is impossible to finger right now. So much work and so little payoff.
 
Work Play said:
I don't understand any of that dark flow stuff, but a crazy shakeup would be great.
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That's a major issue most atheists, agnostics, pastafarians, etc. continue to ignore.

Secular scientists pump our brains full of information (evolutionary biology, etc.) we can't possibly understand, and some take that and create their worldview around it.

To top it off, science isn't conclusive, never will be. Takes quite a bit of faith to place all your eggs in the science basket if you ask me!
 
Madmick said:
This is the Kantian God model. The entire purpose of his argument is that God is a concept which cannot be proven by man, ever. It transcends rational observation & inquiry.

As an agnostic I have no problem with this. I become frustrated when Christians insist that there is "evidence" for God or that they can prove him, and trust me, many of them will attest this. They have on this very board again and again over the years. It's mind-boggling. What "evidence" could be there be that matters? None whatsoever. In the case of Christianity, specifically, it's a belief system predicated on these principles: witness and believe. In our case we don't even witness. We read the accounts of witnesses. It's not a matter of investigation or proof; it's a matter of revelation.

This wouldn't be a problem except a fact that seems to irritate a portion of Christians is that we've discovered the governments that tend to produce the best qualities of life divorce that sort of supernatural belief from rational policy-making. These are better dictated by facts that can be logically observed and argued.
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Thank you! This sums up my frustration with the topic. One thing I will add is that the BBT is NOT a theory for how the universe came to exist, just an explanation for the reason why the universe is shaped the way it is and a model to estimate the age of the universe. There is plenty of evidence to support it.

For people thinking about investing time and energy into debating what came before it, please consider Adler's Razor - If something cannot be settled by experiment or observation, then it is not worthy of debate.
In other words, until science comes up with a model for quantum gravity or God makes himself available for questioning, the point is moot.
 
Overpressure said:
The Lord instructed me to try to help you.
Unfortunately I have to report a lack of success.
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Lead-image.gif
 
Skip Reming said:
1) you would get proof like God being the uncaused cause of everything
2) the new testament does have witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus and many people persecuted and martyred for their belief
3) you would also have some predictions that came true like the dream of nebechunzzer (sp?) in Daniel. Of course you would have debate about the year the book was written 2nd century BC vs 6th century BC (I have read the research and 6th century BC is more likely and not impossible)

The greatest proof you will ever have is personal experience.

Now, not proof of it being true, but we have prospered the most under judeo-christian influence
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I don't see any proof that people saw Jesus after his supposed execution. There's a couple things written down in old shit, but who's to say any of that really happened? I can find just as much written material saying Zeus or Odin walked the Earth fucking with people, but that doesn't mean I take it seriously.
 
Overpressure said:
I'll day that the data supporting the BBT is really solid. CMB pretty much seals the deal that started with Edwin Hubble noticing that almost all galaxies are moving away from us and that to an observer in any other galaxy it would look pretty much the same.

The CMB is what the theory predicted should exist, and it has been found.
I'm pretty well convinced until a better theory comes along.
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Various theories can postulate CMB - Bohmian mechanics used in Raychaudhuri equation shows a lot of evidence of in the infinite time universe. They used Bohm and deBroglie wave theory in a model that the universe goes through continuous loop stages of expansion and compression (a giant bose condensate)

http://arxiv.org/abs/1411.0753
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0370269314009381#
 
jgarner said:
I don't see any proof that people saw Jesus after his supposed execution. There's a couple things written down in old shit, but who's to say any of that really happened? I can find just as much written material saying Zeus or Odin walked the Earth fucking with people, but that doesn't mean I take it seriously.
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Depends what you mean by proof. There are many scholars who argue that it is more likely that it happened, based on the evidence, while others disagree.

No one can say that "it happened", but has that ever been the point? Much like the debate of "what happened before the Big Bang?", certainty is never the goal.
 
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