If universe started from big bang, then what was before big bang?

ultramanhyata said:
So, are you in fact saying that the BBT rises to that level of data support? Is any doubt concerning it "absurd" in your estimation?
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I'll day that the data supporting the BBT is really solid. CMB pretty much seals the deal that started with Edwin Hubble noticing that almost all galaxies are moving away from us and that to an observer in any other galaxy it would look pretty much the same.

The CMB is what the theory predicted should exist, and it has been found.
I'm pretty well convinced until a better theory comes along.
 
InvestigatorIL said:
Ok you said the hard liners and since 99% of atheists are hard liners. Atheists are generally not open to the possibility of a god
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Not sure if I'm reading this right or understand the context but I am an atheist but I am open to the possibility of a god.
 
Jesus Freak said:
Why...because my rebuttal comes attached to a goofy meme?

The question remains...how many books have you proven to be true/untrue?

Funny how you clowns all claim to have the answers, while we Christians seem to know He who holds the answers.
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You've been reading right past the places where I express uncertainties.

Only religion has certainties, and it has no predictive power. Science has uncertainties and has stunningly predicted many, many, many discoveries. In fact, as I've stated, part of the strength of science as a tool for knowing how the natural world works is its falsifiability.
 
Panmisiek said:
EDIT: I got some interesting assumption to this. God exists outside of time. Since we live in a universe of cause and effect, we naturally assume that this is the only way in which any kind of existence can function. However, the premise is false. Without the dimension of time, there is no cause and effect, and all things that could exist in such a realm would have no need of being caused, but would have always existed. Therefore, God has no need of being created, but, in fact, created the time dimension of our universe specifically for a reason - so that cause and effect would exist for us. However, since God created time, cause and effect would never apply to His existence.
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This is the Kantian God model. The entire purpose of his argument is that God is a concept which cannot be proven by man, ever. It transcends rational observation & inquiry.

As an agnostic I have no problem with this. I become frustrated when Christians insist that there is "evidence" for God or that they can prove him, and trust me, many of them will attest this. They have on this very board again and again over the years. It's mind-boggling. What "evidence" could be there be that matters? None whatsoever. In the case of Christianity, specifically, it's a belief system predicated on these principles: witness and believe. In our case we don't even witness. We read the accounts of witnesses. It's not a matter of investigation or proof; it's a matter of revelation.

This wouldn't be a problem except a fact that seems to irritate a portion of Christians is that we've discovered the governments that tend to produce the best qualities of life divorce that sort of supernatural belief from rational policy-making. These are better dictated by facts that can be logically observed and argued.
 
Voodoo_Child906 said:
Yes, it would take a lot of extra evidence to convince me though.
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Hmmm. I tend to think there is about as much possibility of a biblical christian god as there is for the Flying Spag Mon.

I respect your position but I lol'd at extra evidence and not in a degrading way . I was trying to picture what that evidence could be. I think I would need him to actually come down and have a voice like the Wizard from Wizard of Oz saying I exist.
 
Overpressure said:
You've been reading right past the places where I express uncertainties.

Only religion has certainties, and it has no predictive power. Science has uncertainties and has stunningly predicted many, many, many discoveries. In fact, as I've stated, part of the strength of science as a tool for knowing how the natural world works is its falsifiability.
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Keep in mind that science doesn't tell us anything...scientists do. And depending on their worldview, the information they pump out may be biased.

As far as I can tell, science is The Study of God's Creation.

Believe...THAT.
 
InvestigatorIL said:
I think I would need him to actually come down and have a voice like the Wizard from Wizard of Oz saying I exist.
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If that hypothetically happened, you would be justified in your belief of God, but could not persuade others to believe. That is to say, you can justify your own belief, but cannot justify why others should believe.
 
Jesus Freak said:
Keep in mind that science doesn't tell us anything...scientists do. And depending on their worldview, the information they pump out may be biased.

As far as I can tell, science is The Study of God's Creation.

Believe...THAT.
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Whatever you say.
Or rather, whatever ancient people said you should say.
 
Voodoo_Child906 said:
Wouldn't the choices just be narrowed:

1) An unknown phenomenon in our universe
2) Something outside our universe
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Yes, but you could still be making an observation from outside our universe, to a degree of certainty that convinces you, and you might be able to use the new theory to make falsifiable predictions. I'm just arguing that we might learn the properties of something from beyond our own spacetime. It's not ruled out, and it seems likely to me that something like that will happen.
 
Seano said:
Another science vs religion debate where neither side can just say they don't really know.

Saying there was no "before" the big bang makes as much sense as a divine spirit making the universe. There had to be something, whether we know what it was or not.

There is no proof to support the idea that a god created anything yet people who tout science will not also admit that there comes a point where they have to say "I really have no idea.... but SCIENCE!"and eventually it just degenerates into a bunch of hipster dorks belittling people for their belief because they actually have no idea either and can't just say so.
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"There had to be something" - read my last paragraph of the title post. We live in a world of cause in effect.
 
InvestigatorIL said:
Hmmm. I tend to think there is about as much possibility of a biblical christian god as there is for the Flying Spag Mon.

I respect your position but I lol'd at extra evidence and not in a degrading way . I was trying to picture what that evidence could be. I think I would need him to actually come down and have a voice like the Wizard from Wizard of Oz saying I exist.
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LOL ya for me to believe that the Pauline Christian god exists would take a lot of steps:

1) He'd have to know personal information about me that no one else knows
2) He'd have to perform a local miracle to me
3) To make sure I wasn't going crazy he'd have to perform a few miracles for the entire world to view and analyse

I guess it still wouldn't rule out really advanced aliens that could manipulate space-time but that would be enough as it wouldn't matter LOL

Tell me, what would it take for you?
 
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ripskater said:
What convinces you the most that there was a big bang?
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Im actually a bit of a big bang skeptic but that is where the evidence we have points too at this time
 
Overpressure said:
Whatever you say.
Or rather, whatever ancient people said you should say.
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Love how you and your crew of flunkies look down upon ancient people, but don't seem to bat an eye at bagillion-zillion-year time-frames.

So awesome.
 
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